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he collects everything from piri Reis

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Aleister Crowley

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I haven't heard of you coming up in a

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minute with Jason Horsley we talked a

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lot about the cultural influence of

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Aleister Crowley do you need any more

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evidence than a scooby-doo movie Crowley

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or a buffy the vampire

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so do this is a really long interview I

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think there's a ton of good stuff in it

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here are some clips from the show you

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bring a case like Crowley and you put it

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under the microscope and you see what I

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saw with Vice Kings how far was he

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willing to take that he was willing to

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take that all the way he was what he was

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looking for the what he perceived as the

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most evil at possible of the

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unforgivable sin you know this in the

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Bible's a sin that the Holy Spirit the

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sin against the Holy Spirit was

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unforgivable and then committing it as a

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way to completely the passive

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transgression completely free himself

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from social conditioning from false

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morality now and we're living in a

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culture and climate that advocates this

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it's all over I mean if somebody is

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consciously deceiving they would have to

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also be deluded as well and maybe they

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would have to have some rationale for

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doing it that would be fundamentally

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delusional I mean I do believe there's

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an innate moral sense that we have

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biologically even we have a sense of

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what's right and wrong in any given

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moment you know how effective you can be

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with 90 to 95 percent just true agree

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with you and win your trust so that I

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can then use that to kind of switch

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things in a different way it's spin

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isn't it my sense with that with the

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vendor and he did help me see something

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ironically is is that I started to get a

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sense that it was to do with ideological

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affiliation if you like that the vendor

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- my impression anyways is ideologically

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affiliated with the our core values and

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systems and methodologies

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I'm your host Alex he

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cares today we welcome Jason Horsley

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back to skeptic Oh Jason is the author

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of several books including prisoner of

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infinity which we talked about during a

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previous episode of skeptic Oh also the

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vice of kings how socialism occultism

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and the sexual revolution engineered a

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culture of abuse a book I'm sure we will

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be referencing frequently today and a

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new upcoming book titled 16 maps of Hell

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the unraveling of a Hollywood super

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culture I don't know if we'll get a

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chance to talk about that but I hope we

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do it sounds intriguing

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I don't really do the book interview

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thing as you know Jason but I just got

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to let people know about those fantastic

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books cuz they're gonna want to check

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them out also want to let them know

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about you have really a terrific podcast

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a liminal list you know that liminal

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area between well between whatever this

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is and whatever that is in an

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outstanding website blog which we'll be

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referencing as well called auto culture

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and of course people can find all that

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and follow you so all that stuff is

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great but I really wanted to do

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something different I first wanted to

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introduce people to reintroduce people

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to you we did have that interview before

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but you continue to do just such

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phenomenally outstanding work and and

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produce stuff and I'm just blown away I

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mean I think it's brilliant and every

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time I go to dip into some of your stuff

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I'm like I need to just grab a piece and

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I wanted of just getting more and more

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and more listening more reading the more

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your your brilliant brilliant writing

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brilliant audio presentation this dialog

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thing you have going on is is terrific

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but the other thing that I really like

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and respect about you Jason is your your

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personal

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courage that you demonstrate over and

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over again about just putting yourself

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out there and a lot of people can do

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that but they don't have the tenacity

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that you have and like one of the things

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that really just compelled me to contact

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you again was this email exchange do you

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have with Peter lavinda

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and we're gonna try and unravel that in

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this larger context but your tenacity to

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continue to go after lavinda in a very

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appropriate way in these email exchanges

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and I can't tell you the number of

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changes I've had with people where I go

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this guy clearly he's SIOP he's sigh up

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1% why are you buying into this [\h__\h] and

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you rather than just ranting and and no

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one ever listens to me cuz I can't back

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it up you back it up man you back it up

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in the dialogue you've had with them and

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you back it up in terms of pulling

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together a lot of other pieces so I

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really really appreciate that about what

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you do and I'm super excited to have you

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back on skeptical

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well thanks Alex thanks for all those

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kind words and that last point because I

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do I mean that is one of the hardest

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things in life is to confront people

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when we feel that were being deceived

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and it's just the whole social protocol

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that says thou shalt not do that and it

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is something that it's a fine line to

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all because it can be mmm it can be

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driven by neurotic sayings I'm aware of

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that like I might have father issues or

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brother issues and and certainly I got

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triggered in that in exchange of Peter

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the vendor but and it would have been

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easy for me to back off because of just

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just being not sure of myself and he's

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an authority figure and so on and so

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forth but you're right I didn't I

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persisted and and then when it came to

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vice of Kings I did a lot more digging

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and as you know if you've read it I

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found an awful lot of much more

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compelling evidence around that so it

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seemed like it was worth it was worth

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you know standing up for my own personal

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sense of integrity

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and being willing to confront this

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figure as a way to really get a better

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sense of mmm the kind of deception that

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goes on in in this community and in this

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world and around these subjects I'm

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really a rubber meeting Road I mean make

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it personal and practical an experience

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will not abstract or theoretical it's

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much more exciting much more interesting

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it's riskier but I think the end result

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there's a lot more meaningful well you

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know I think there's just a ton to

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unpack there and we're gonna try and do

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that let's back up and make sure that

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well I think we have to you know back up

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and talk about the Peter Levin de

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incident that you know as you said in

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some sense it's the whole story in some

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ways it's the whole story that we're

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gonna tell today about deception about

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evil and how we understand evil what our

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role is and evil what our culture's role

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is and evil what our intelligence

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organizations role is an evil but I

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think in this deception part I think

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it's just so brilliant the way that you

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put it because I think we're all trying

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to wrestle with to what extent were

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being deceived who the deceptor czar

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whether we're deceiving ourselves

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whether our culture is engineered to

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deceive us I could go on and on but what

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I've thrown up there on the screen which

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is you know kind of what I want to base

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this on because I mentioned to you one

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essentially that email I'm writing this

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book so this book you know I mean I

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don't know why anyone writes books these

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days but you're right books and some

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people read them and I read your books

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and they they impacted me and I guess

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that's all I hope to do with my book why

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evil matters is just to maybe reach a

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couple of people at the right time who

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go gee why aren't we really dealing with

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this evil question in a kind of more

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deeper intellectual kind of pre

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scientific way and that's really the

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premise of the book

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and I think when you talk about evil one

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thing that comes up a lot to me in the

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conversations I have is the Aleister

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Crowley thing and I call it I call it

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the Aleister Crowley test you know I

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mean about that like if you just tell

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people you bring up Aleister Crowley

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right and you know you're gonna get a

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couple of canned reactions and it's the

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ability people have I think to handle

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that topic however they do to me is

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almost like a shortcut litmus test for

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where they're at in this larger

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understanding of evil deception

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left-hand path and and both personally

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but also just in kind of a cultural spy

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Peter Levin the thing that we'll get

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into but as usual I'm kind of laying a

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lot on the table and jumping way ahead

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of the story let's so let me let me back

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up or let you back up if you could

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you've written brilliantly and

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extensively on Crowley can you give

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folks just if they're coming at this now

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and they can't understand the deep dive

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inside baseball stuff we've gotten into

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backup who is Aleister Crowley you know

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what does he represent in our culture

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why is he important why does he matter

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can you just kind of start with the

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basics maybe hmm well I guess even

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starting in the basis there's a lot of

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different angles so where I tend to

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start with Crowley and what seems to me

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what makes him indisputably significant

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is his influence and from two

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perspectives like the proof of his

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influence is indisputable I mean the

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easy go-to is pop music of the 60s and

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70s days on the cover of citing purpose

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only asked a plan and he's cited in in

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David Bowie's hunky dory which was very

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influential for me as an adolescent

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and so on Jimmy Page and Marilyn Manson

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this is no enter is is influenced

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several decades in several different

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musical movements on from the one side

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does that as that's irrefutable the

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other side is is Hara did he have that

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much influence and how deliberate and

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how intentional was that and I think I

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look at invited Kings the evidence that

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that Crowley was not what he seems in

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terms of this creative Aqil outlier this

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iconoclast who is pursuing these extreme

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transgressions in order to liberate

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humanity that's half the story but it's

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also maybe a half a cover story and that

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his influence I think was at least

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partially assisted let's say that he was

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just as as evidence that Crowley was an

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intelligence a and an operative and it

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was functioning at that level it tends

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to be that the biographers have

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separated two things out on the one hand

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he's this independent artist writer or

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cultists on the other hand he also

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dabbled in intelligence work and they're

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almost like separate things now the

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connecting areas of course he was

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rememberable called secret societies and

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even created his own the AAA which was a

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splinter of the OTO come on before we

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bury people there's so many parts of

273
00:12:40,450 --> 00:12:38,300
that bike so we bury people with all

274
00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:40,460
these acronyms and we bury people with

275
00:12:47,380 --> 00:12:44,270
the cover story but I do want to kind of

276
00:12:50,830 --> 00:12:47,390
back up because when you talk about the

277
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:50,840
cover story we also have to understand

278
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:53,510
the other touch point that Crowley

279
00:13:00,630 --> 00:12:57,200
is today inside of the magic culture

280
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:00,640
that is kind of a growing subculture

281
00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:04,490
Netflix culture streaming its inner

282
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:07,100
woven through all of that that the idea

283
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:09,050
of the occult that there's something

284
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:11,090
hidden that there's something you don't

285
00:13:16,420 --> 00:13:13,490
know about but it's a deeper truth and

286
00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:16,430
there's this do what thou wilt famous

287
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:19,880
ethos that is kind of woven through our

288
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:22,160
culture in another way that we don't

289
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:25,040
quite understand its origins until

290
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:27,110
people tell you about Aleister Crowley

291
00:13:31,450 --> 00:13:29,090
and they kind of whisper it in your ear

292
00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:31,460
and then you go oh wow you mean there's

293
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:34,700
this other secret sage of the of the

294
00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:37,610
esoteric the 92 to kind of get in touch

295
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:41,260
with let me let me do this if I can I

296
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:44,890
pulled out some clips some from some

297
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:47,600
really excellent interviews you've done

298
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:51,130
let me play some of those my first

299
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:54,530
contact with Crowley was through David

300
00:14:00,460 --> 00:13:58,310
Bowie the album hunky dory which I heard

301
00:14:03,190 --> 00:14:00,470
in my brother's bedroom and that might

302
00:14:05,950 --> 00:14:03,200
seem like a trivial thing or an old

303
00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:05,960
place to start but how a virus enters

304
00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:08,990
this is very key I think well how open

305
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:11,000
we are how vulnerable we are in that

306
00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:13,330
moment is going to determine how

307
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:15,860
infected we are and I'd say that that

308
00:14:20,590 --> 00:14:18,020
was the case with the Crowley virus that

309
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:20,600
there was a delivery device it was a

310
00:14:25,510 --> 00:14:22,850
combination of the culture and my family

311
00:14:27,490 --> 00:14:25,520
environment David Bowie who I discovered

312
00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:27,500
thereby through my brother who was never

313
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:30,110
a David Bowie fan and my brother was I

314
00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:32,330
was very rarely in his bedroom because

315
00:14:36,610 --> 00:14:34,070
he didn't let me hang around with him

316
00:14:38,410 --> 00:14:36,620
and all his older brother and and so I

317
00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:38,420
think you need to talk about priming

318
00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:39,950
like if you have a really positive

319
00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:42,260
experience of something the first time

320
00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:44,120
around then you're going to be much more

321
00:14:48,190 --> 00:14:46,280
susceptible to ignoring the negative

322
00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:48,200
aspects of it because of that initial

323
00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:51,080
priming so in some weird way I think I

324
00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:52,700
was primed for Crowley by that

325
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:55,280
combination of hearing David Bowie sing

326
00:15:01,150 --> 00:14:58,480
his name my brothers attic bedroom

327
00:15:03,250 --> 00:15:01,160
solders there's a lot to unpack there

328
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:03,260
let me just turn it over to you what are

329
00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:04,850
some of your thoughts listening to that

330
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:07,540
again hmm

331
00:15:15,580 --> 00:15:13,130
well I mean it's still going on that's

332
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:15,590
the thing I'm still the reason I write

333
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:18,290
these books as ideas and this latest one

334
00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:19,970
about Hollywood is getting much more

335
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:23,190
specific I'm trying to

336
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:25,530
extract the virus I'm trying to purge

337
00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:28,530
the virus from my system but at the same

338
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:32,070
time there's a reason why I let it in

339
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:34,410
which isn't just the ferrous and

340
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:37,650
malignant like there's a reason one can

341
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:39,450
develop immunity of course it's quite

342
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:41,850
topical with all this stuff around the

343
00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:44,130
cove right now but one device

344
00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:47,640
immediately by exposure to viruses or

345
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:50,550
what we call viruses and one can observe

346
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:52,590
their effects and thereby you know

347
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:54,570
analyze and understand them so where I'm

348
00:16:01,870 --> 00:15:57,000
at now is I'm like well I let this virus

349
00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:01,880
in and I'm trying to get it out and and

350
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:04,020
necessary to getting it out of my system

351
00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:06,360
somehow seems to be breaking it down to

352
00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:08,460
its constituent parts and understanding

353
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:10,980
what made me vulnerable to it and what

354
00:16:15,290 --> 00:16:13,050
what's the affinity love sympathy

355
00:16:18,350 --> 00:16:15,300
between myself and my own trauma and

356
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,360
that that cultural virus and then that

357
00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:20,160
leads to these books and these analyses

358
00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:21,870
which hopefully are helpful to others

359
00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:24,390
hold on on that what if it really is

360
00:16:30,140 --> 00:16:27,870
about deception what if it is not even

361
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:30,150
so much a part of your personal journey

362
00:16:35,150 --> 00:16:33,120
what if it's an unnecessary step along

363
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:35,160
your personal journey and that's one

364
00:16:41,090 --> 00:16:38,190
thing I'd like to at least explore both

365
00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:41,100
in my book and in this interview is that

366
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:44,640
just because Croley is there and just

367
00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:48,360
because Johnny Depp is wrapping his arm

368
00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:50,820
around damien echols

369
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:53,880
and who is the crowley follower from the

370
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:56,220
West Memphis Three and over and over

371
00:17:01,370 --> 00:16:58,560
again our culture has told us a Crowley

372
00:17:04,939 --> 00:17:01,380
and it's cool maybe we don't have to go

373
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:04,949
there maybe we don't have to explore

374
00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:07,770
that and we can step past it and I'm not

375
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:09,990
saying it's like all evil and bad if you

376
00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:14,160
do it I'm just questioning the is I

377
00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:16,230
think you were even the because there's

378
00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:18,030
two ways to read what you're saying one

379
00:17:21,439 --> 00:17:20,699
is to say hey it's there and you got to

380
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:21,449
deal with it

381
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:23,550
and the other is to say you know let's

382
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:25,260
look at this let's be informed

383
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:26,970
beforehand so maybe we can step around

384
00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:29,610
the pothole in the first place now I

385
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:31,740
mean it makes sense and certainly but

386
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:33,230
this is a sort of conundrum

387
00:17:37,539 --> 00:17:35,510
I also have around psychedelics because

388
00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:37,549
I feel that psychedelics was a mistake

389
00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:40,309
for me by and large and therefore that

390
00:17:45,460 --> 00:17:43,160
maybe I can use my experience of them to

391
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:45,470
help others avoid the same pitfalls so

392
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:47,150
this is definitely the case with Crowley

393
00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:50,000
not cultism I would warn others against

394
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:52,520
it but what I mean this is right to the

395
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:54,410
core of your question your why evil

396
00:17:59,320 --> 00:17:56,090
matters which is an interesting phrase

397
00:18:01,690 --> 00:17:59,330
in itself because there is a

398
00:18:04,060 --> 00:18:01,700
correspondent in your talking about that

399
00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:04,070
the allure and the cool of Crowley and

400
00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:06,230
all that stuff very prominent in our

401
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:08,750
culture as I said since the 60s on it's

402
00:18:12,909 --> 00:18:10,910
been is this meme that's been generated

403
00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:12,919
but you must also be aware that

404
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:15,020
coexisting with that those are not

405
00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:16,910
necessarily Christian would often

406
00:18:22,780 --> 00:18:19,910
Christian counter push saying that

407
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:22,790
Crowley is just evil and just stay away

408
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,559
from it it's just sick it's being on

409
00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:26,720
it's psychopathic and although I I'd

410
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:30,740
probably agree with a diagnosis 90% it's

411
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:33,410
not really fruitful and it's if you're

412
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:35,450
just dismissing or if you just say it's

413
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:38,720
evil stay away from it because it

414
00:18:43,539 --> 00:18:41,120
doesn't allow for understanding and it

415
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:43,549
and it demonizes and it scapegoats and

416
00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:47,690
it and it just perpetuates this division

417
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:50,390
there that and of course Crowley himself

418
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,730
promoted his evil and that was part of

419
00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:54,320
his cool so the people who think that

420
00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:56,270
Crowley's cool and not going to be

421
00:19:00,880 --> 00:18:58,490
discouraged by people saying he's evil

422
00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:00,890
right that's the problem I think that's

423
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:02,600
exactly the problem I think you

424
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:03,770
immediately

425
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,240
I think understood the premise of the

426
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:10,400
book just by the title which so few

427
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:12,410
people do you know and I've already done

428
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:14,450
interviews on the book and people are

429
00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:17,510
immediately want to go to is this evil

430
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:19,280
is that evil do you mean this is evil

431
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:22,130
and it's like no you're trying to make a

432
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:25,340
list or quantify evil or compare evil I

433
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:28,160
wrote this first book why science is

434
00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:30,799
wrong about almost everything and the

435
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:32,990
premise of the book was that if you get

436
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:34,910
consciousness wrong if you think

437
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:36,890
consciousness is an illusion if you

438
00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:39,049
think we're all biological robots in a

439
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:40,760
meaningless universe well then you

440
00:19:45,299 --> 00:19:42,710
really can't get anything right in

441
00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:45,309
science because you'll never factor in

442
00:19:50,289 --> 00:19:46,820
consciousness

443
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:50,299
and the premise of the second book libel

444
00:19:58,539 --> 00:19:53,600
matters is that if you're not willing to

445
00:20:00,940 --> 00:19:58,549
explore evil and evil becomes really a

446
00:20:03,399 --> 00:20:00,950
shorthand for saying these extended

447
00:20:07,149 --> 00:20:03,409
consciousness realms that extend beyond

448
00:20:09,669 --> 00:20:07,159
this biological robot I'm just here in

449
00:20:12,610 --> 00:20:09,679
my brain if you're not willing to to

450
00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:12,620
explore what might extend beyond our

451
00:20:17,230 --> 00:20:15,289
minute-by-minute experience and if

452
00:20:19,570 --> 00:20:17,240
you're not willing to include evil in

453
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:19,580
that then you're not really gonna say

454
00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:22,070
anything meaningful about spirituality

455
00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:24,950
whatever that means so yeah I'm trying

456
00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:27,620
to draw attention to that we've been

457
00:20:33,369 --> 00:20:30,200
kind of put in a box with evil where

458
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:33,379
it's like it's evil it's either this

459
00:20:38,499 --> 00:20:36,320
very narrowly defined thing that this

460
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:38,509
old book tells you about and you're

461
00:20:45,159 --> 00:20:42,500
shamed into believing through your being

462
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:45,169
a part of one of these cultish religions

463
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:49,129
like Christianity or it's a complete

464
00:20:55,330 --> 00:20:52,159
denial it's the it's the do what thou

465
00:20:57,639 --> 00:20:55,340
wilt denial of evil that's not only from

466
00:21:00,100 --> 00:20:57,649
Crowley but if you look in the

467
00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:00,110
scientific realms you know like we you

468
00:21:05,230 --> 00:21:02,750
have and I have it you know it's it's

469
00:21:07,539 --> 00:21:05,240
embedded in that materialist message of

470
00:21:08,889 --> 00:21:07,549
course there's no evil I mean there

471
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:08,899
isn't even freewill

472
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:10,610
there's nothing you were just a

473
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:12,710
biological robot how could there be evil

474
00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:16,850
in that so to me that's why that's the

475
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:18,830
whole why evil matters things it's

476
00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:22,190
because we're kind of the walls are you

477
00:21:25,749 --> 00:21:23,870
know we're Indiana Jones and the walls

478
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:25,759
are closing in on both sides with

479
00:21:33,369 --> 00:21:28,250
religion on one hand and scientism on

480
00:21:38,409 --> 00:21:33,379
the other and I think Crowley as an

481
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:38,419
agent of that process I think is is

482
00:21:45,369 --> 00:21:42,080
really kind of interesting yeah so and

483
00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:45,379
to me you know the area where we can let

484
00:21:51,460 --> 00:21:48,440
Samarin is psychology and now of course

485
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:51,470
I called us back to Freud and even young

486
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:53,809
it's it's heavily compromised but still

487
00:21:59,289 --> 00:21:57,440
at least as a working model it allows

488
00:22:00,520 --> 00:21:59,299
for both a scientific view and a

489
00:22:02,380 --> 00:22:00,530
religious view

490
00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:02,390
but primarily it's it's a it's a

491
00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:04,550
subjective view it's something we can

492
00:22:10,150 --> 00:22:07,790
refer to and understand ourselves and by

493
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:10,160
looking at ourselves and we're all human

494
00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:13,310
beings and we all have psyches whatever

495
00:22:19,150 --> 00:22:14,960
configured in the same way and the same

496
00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:19,160
way biologically were the same so I'm my

497
00:22:23,620 --> 00:22:21,470
approach with Crowley see isn't isn't

498
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:23,630
that Crowley was evil it's that he was

499
00:22:28,510 --> 00:22:26,330
psychologically damaged and that we can

500
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:28,520
see this in the inconsistencies in his

501
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:31,250
work and the hypocrisy and the abuses

502
00:22:35,260 --> 00:22:32,900
and the corruption and what we would

503
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:35,270
think of as evil behaviors all that can

504
00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:37,820
be seen psychologically and it makes his

505
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:40,670
work fundamentally invalid invalidated

506
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:44,030
and at the same time it corresponds with

507
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:48,110
how Crowley himself was useful for an

508
00:22:54,670 --> 00:22:51,250
instrument of these much larger

509
00:22:58,660 --> 00:22:54,680
apparatuses of psychosocial control and

510
00:23:01,270 --> 00:22:58,670
engineering which creates somebody like

511
00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:01,280
Crowley or create these viruses and

512
00:23:07,690 --> 00:23:04,190
perpetuate the trauma as this much

513
00:23:10,530 --> 00:23:07,700
larger mega glory might say of of

514
00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:10,540
ancestral trauma which has become so

515
00:23:17,710 --> 00:23:13,880
endemic and so virulent that the word

516
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:17,720
evil isn't a misnomer really I mean it

517
00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:20,810
the word evil I don't use it much except

518
00:23:24,910 --> 00:23:22,160
when we're talking about in this meta

519
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:24,920
way I can I try and avoid saying this is

520
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:27,710
evil that is evil he is evil because I

521
00:23:32,350 --> 00:23:30,650
think it it well it just doesn't really

522
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:32,360
work this is not where I thought this

523
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:33,730
would go but it's a really interesting

524
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:37,610
point so let me back up and I know I'm

525
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:39,290
talking a lot for really an interview

526
00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:40,310
with you but we've got to have this

527
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:42,470
conversation it's like this is story

528
00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:43,910
that everyone is listening this show

529
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:45,950
probably is heard 50 times by now but

530
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:48,290
it's okay I'll do it again because we

531
00:23:52,540 --> 00:23:49,730
got to get it out there so I'm

532
00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:52,550
interviewing this guy Ohio State

533
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,590
University religion professor dr. Hugh

534
00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:56,000
Urban and he's written this fantastic

535
00:23:59,950 --> 00:23:58,160
book on Scientology fantastic I don't

536
00:24:01,570 --> 00:23:59,960
know but fantastic well received

537
00:24:03,940 --> 00:24:01,580
everyone thinks it's great it's about

538
00:24:05,650 --> 00:24:03,950
Scientology as a new religion well right

539
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:05,660
off the bat is this a new religion can't

540
00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:08,000
we just call it for what it is a cult no

541
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:09,830
we can't call it a cult because we're in

542
00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:12,530
the we're in academia we can't identify

543
00:24:15,879 --> 00:24:13,940
something as evil

544
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:15,889
it's back to this relativism there's no

545
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:19,610
evil thing so in his research Hugh Urban

546
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:23,210
is doing an historical breakdown of

547
00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:25,490
Scientology and he says yes I can

548
00:24:30,610 --> 00:24:27,500
confirm that l ron Hubbard the founder

549
00:24:32,860 --> 00:24:30,620
of Scientology was in the desert with

550
00:24:35,049 --> 00:24:32,870
Jack Parsons and Jack Parsons was in

551
00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:35,059
communication with Crowley and they had

552
00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:39,230
orchestrated this sex magic ritual to

553
00:24:44,169 --> 00:24:41,809
bring forth the [\h__\h] of Babylon with

554
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:44,179
the hopes of conceiving the Antichrist

555
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:47,690
and thereby controlling the world you

556
00:24:55,749 --> 00:24:52,610
know so again this guy says yes that did

557
00:24:58,779 --> 00:24:55,759
happen and I said okay pause you know

558
00:25:01,119 --> 00:24:58,789
don't we need to kind of explore that a

559
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:01,129
little bit and he was no Alex we don't

560
00:25:06,999 --> 00:25:03,279
because it doesn't matter if it's true

561
00:25:09,399 --> 00:25:07,009
it matters only if they believed it were

562
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:09,409
true and my point and this kind of gets

563
00:25:13,090 --> 00:25:11,600
to the psychology thing right because

564
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:13,100
that's something you might hear that's

565
00:25:20,289 --> 00:25:16,929
definitely something you would hear some

566
00:25:22,810 --> 00:25:20,299
psychologists say and my point was no

567
00:25:26,019 --> 00:25:22,820
that's completely backwards the first

568
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:26,029
thing we have to know is whether or not

569
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:29,210
we should take seriously that claim

570
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:31,370
whether there is an extended

571
00:25:34,419 --> 00:25:32,720
consciousness realm that they were

572
00:25:36,850 --> 00:25:34,429
trying to connect with is there such a

573
00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:36,860
thing is it possible to connect with

574
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,110
such realms is it possible that those

575
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:41,360
realms can have an effect on this

576
00:25:45,909 --> 00:25:43,370
material world I'm not saying we have to

577
00:25:47,529 --> 00:25:45,919
you know have some firm answer on that

578
00:25:51,610 --> 00:25:47,539
but we have to be able to put that on

579
00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:51,620
the table well I mean I don't think that

580
00:25:57,970 --> 00:25:54,740
I was sidestepping the question whether

581
00:26:01,899 --> 00:25:57,980
evil exists however but what I was

582
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:01,909
saying is if it doesn't work to call

583
00:26:06,249 --> 00:26:04,370
something evil for me anyway

584
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:06,259
in a number of ways one is as I've

585
00:26:11,379 --> 00:26:08,480
already said that people who are already

586
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:11,389
drawn to those things it's not going to

587
00:26:17,049 --> 00:26:15,080
wash for them anyway so that's one thing

588
00:26:19,149 --> 00:26:17,059
but the other is just on why should we

589
00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:19,159
care but I understand that perspective

590
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:21,470
you see because if we're going to posit

591
00:26:24,820 --> 00:26:23,090
I mean let's cut to the chase and we're

592
00:26:27,159 --> 00:26:24,830
going to posit state was an actual

593
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:27,169
entity which is almost necessary if you

594
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:27,730
start to

595
00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:30,130
my evil is not but let's get you're

596
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:32,590
getting in that realm then we've got two

597
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:34,570
stars well what is Satan you know God

598
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:36,730
created Satan therefore say it must be a

599
00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:38,590
principle in the universe that is done

600
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:40,630
but divinely ordained this is the

601
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:43,090
problem with Christian is this inherent

602
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:45,010
contradiction in it right that's a

603
00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:46,990
problem with Christianity it isn't a

604
00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:49,720
problem with evil per se Satan we can

605
00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:52,360
both agree Satan if you try and look at

606
00:26:56,460 --> 00:26:53,950
Satan historically he slips through your

607
00:26:59,570 --> 00:26:56,470
fingers right he's not there you know I

608
00:27:02,640 --> 00:26:59,580
often reference Richard smoly the

609
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:02,650
esteemed religious scholar and author of

610
00:27:08,550 --> 00:27:06,850
the book how God became God and there's

611
00:27:11,250 --> 00:27:08,560
a guy who goes and tries to trace Satan

612
00:27:14,220 --> 00:27:11,260
he goes he's not there you go in the in

613
00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:14,230
the pre-tour Oh way back Judaic Tex he

614
00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:16,030
doesn't exist and then a few hundred

615
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,830
years later

616
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:18,880
Zoroaster kind of introduces this

617
00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:20,530
dualism and all of a sudden it pops up

618
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:23,080
in his books it's not there but no one

619
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:25,540
would deny that to whatever extent were

620
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:27,730
co-creators is this reality Satan's sure

621
00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:31,930
seems to be here now so it's like I mean

622
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:34,300
deconstructing that as a whole for our

623
00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:37,360
thing we could have but Christianity is

624
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:39,430
clearly corrupted so I don't think we

625
00:27:46,770 --> 00:27:43,440
want to extreme or it's a very clear-cut

626
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:46,780
example in the embodiment of evil so to

627
00:27:52,050 --> 00:27:49,030
speak but the same can be applied to

628
00:27:55,290 --> 00:27:52,060
evil is my point like the people who who

629
00:27:57,420 --> 00:27:55,300
do evil the people who perpetuate evil

630
00:27:59,970 --> 00:27:57,430
or the people who advocate evils they

631
00:28:03,990 --> 00:27:59,980
have very convincing arguments for

632
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:04,000
they're very sophisticated in seing the

633
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:07,120
passive transgression I mean when I say

634
00:28:11,910 --> 00:28:10,540
convincing I mean I'm not convinced by

635
00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:11,920
them I don't want to you know be

636
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:13,750
misunderstood I think that they're

637
00:28:17,580 --> 00:28:16,090
they're rationalizations but

638
00:28:20,130 --> 00:28:17,590
rationalizations can be very

639
00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:20,140
sophisticated and so the most obvious

640
00:28:24,450 --> 00:28:22,750
one is is the Jungian approach that the

641
00:28:26,790 --> 00:28:24,460
shadow that we need to integrate the

642
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:26,800
shadow as in all the parts of ourselves

643
00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:29,340
that are poisonous that we've disowned

644
00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:33,700
in order to maintain a socialized ego

645
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:36,280
self that feels like it has control over

646
00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:38,830
life which is a losery you know in order

647
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:40,860
to actually suppress things into

648
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:42,960
unconscious that we find difficult we

649
00:28:47,299 --> 00:28:45,480
create this shadow of everything that we

650
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:47,309
don't like and in order to become whole

651
00:28:51,410 --> 00:28:49,440
we have to integrate all those things we

652
00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:51,420
have to become conscious on and to some

653
00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:53,220
extent we have death we have to reown

654
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:55,500
them and even enact them you can see how

655
00:28:59,539 --> 00:28:57,120
that and you know I looked at this with

656
00:29:01,880 --> 00:28:59,549
John de rooster the Canadian girl who

657
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:01,890
had this rationale for having sex with

658
00:29:06,410 --> 00:29:04,410
his followers in keeping it secret and

659
00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:06,420
you believed claim to believe he was

660
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:09,179
battling Satan internally and the part

661
00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:10,770
of that battle meant that he had to

662
00:29:16,610 --> 00:29:13,350
actually commit acts that he considered

663
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:16,620
evil in order to you know bla bla bla

664
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:19,950
integrate the shadow right and and you

665
00:29:24,919 --> 00:29:22,530
know sin end of this wedge is true like

666
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:24,929
we do I know in my life I've had to see

667
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:27,510
my own capacities in evil for evil and

668
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:29,700
accept it and some of that has involved

669
00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:32,010
conscious enactment Zola because it's

670
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:33,900
the only way I'd let myself see it and

671
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,610
then you bring a case like Crowley and

672
00:29:39,650 --> 00:29:37,200
you put him under the microscope and you

673
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:39,660
see what I saw with ice creams how far

674
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,520
was he willing to take that he was

675
00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:43,919
willing to take that all the way he was

676
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:45,990
what he was looking for the what he

677
00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:48,540
perceived as the most evil at possible

678
00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:51,630
the unforgivable sin you know this in

679
00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:53,700
the Bible's a sin that the Holy Spirit

680
00:29:57,980 --> 00:29:55,260
the sin against the Holy Spirit was

681
00:30:01,220 --> 00:29:57,990
unforgivable and then committing it as a

682
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:01,230
way to completely the passive

683
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:02,910
transgression completely free himself

684
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:05,250
from social conditioning from false

685
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:07,770
morality now and we're living in a

686
00:30:13,630 --> 00:30:09,690
culture in climate that advocates this

687
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:13,640
it's all over yeah I mean I don't know

688
00:30:21,409 --> 00:30:17,520
get back to deconstructing that because

689
00:30:25,310 --> 00:30:21,419
those are such amazingly important you

690
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:25,320
know topics and I think that the they do

691
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:28,830
what thou wilt culture I think that we

692
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:31,650
are a part of definitely has an appeal

693
00:30:37,159 --> 00:30:33,630
for a lot of the reasons that you said

694
00:30:39,020 --> 00:30:37,169
and they're not all completely

695
00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:39,030
understandable but I think one of the

696
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:41,880
things that I like that you're kind of

697
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:43,620
bringing forward but I want to emphasize

698
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:46,970
it even further is this idea of

699
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:49,440
transgression this idea of the Econo

700
00:30:54,659 --> 00:30:52,710
clastic rebellion against and usually

701
00:30:58,729 --> 00:30:54,669
what that means is a rebellion against

702
00:31:01,440 --> 00:30:58,739
again this equally corrupted system of

703
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:01,450
social engineering mind-control that is

704
00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:03,940
Christianity and I really think you know

705
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:05,679
until you do a deep dive and really

706
00:31:10,139 --> 00:31:07,080
understand the roots of Christianity

707
00:31:13,009 --> 00:31:10,149
being about social engineering and

708
00:31:17,099 --> 00:31:13,019
control then you can't understand the

709
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:17,109
juxtaposition of you know that the

710
00:31:20,729 --> 00:31:20,080
transgression ISM denialism do what thou

711
00:31:23,489 --> 00:31:20,739
wilt

712
00:31:26,099 --> 00:31:23,499
you know express yourself I pulled up if

713
00:31:29,159 --> 00:31:26,109
we cannot be Saints let us all be

714
00:31:31,639 --> 00:31:29,169
sinners which is the you know if

715
00:31:36,779 --> 00:31:31,649
anyone's heard of the Sabbat in Frankish

716
00:31:38,879 --> 00:31:36,789
thing here's a guy Anthony Mueller on

717
00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:38,889
medium and I always point people to this

718
00:31:44,729 --> 00:31:41,080
because we have a tendency to think that

719
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:44,739
the jacob frank thing is fake or that

720
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:47,440
it's just cooked up by some people with

721
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:51,279
an agenda and no it's just a real thing

722
00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:53,710
and it's been in history for a long time

723
00:32:00,259 --> 00:31:56,950
Jacob Frank was and lived in the 1700s

724
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:00,269
and it was the same thing it was like

725
00:32:05,999 --> 00:32:03,279
and they again they tied it back in this

726
00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:06,009
kind of crazy cultish way to the Bible

727
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:09,700
they said look the Bible says that the

728
00:32:14,249 --> 00:32:12,129
return to the kingdom will only come

729
00:32:16,859 --> 00:32:14,259
when we're all saints or were all

730
00:32:20,129 --> 00:32:16,869
sinners and we sure as hell can't all be

731
00:32:22,619 --> 00:32:20,139
Saints so here's the best path this is

732
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:22,629
logical people like you like your guru

733
00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:24,369
guy you know - twisted logic the

734
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:27,940
deception will all be sinners and let's

735
00:32:34,049 --> 00:32:30,399
go on let's take on the job of being the

736
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:34,059
greatest sinners we can be so this is

737
00:32:38,849 --> 00:32:36,850
just another instance of the same thing

738
00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:38,859
but when you understand this history I

739
00:32:45,629 --> 00:32:41,980
think it's easier to see the head fake

740
00:32:49,019 --> 00:32:45,639
deception that was Crowley but it just

741
00:32:51,330 --> 00:32:49,029
does amaze me maybe getting back to

742
00:32:54,739 --> 00:32:51,340
where I want to get with the Peter Levin

743
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:54,749
de stuff it amazes me how many people

744
00:33:03,389 --> 00:32:58,090
can't penetrate this it's just it's just

745
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:03,399
they can't get through it mmm yeah well

746
00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:06,960
I'd be one key point here I think is

747
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:08,020
where

748
00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:11,770
and as deception become unconscious

749
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:13,870
behavior and vice-versa like a can we

750
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,010
determine the difference between

751
00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:16,960
somebody who's actually deceiving and

752
00:33:22,140 --> 00:33:20,140
somebody who's acting unconsciously and

753
00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:22,150
certainly the you know somebody is more

754
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:24,340
effective at deceiving others if they

755
00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:26,290
can deceive themselves and at that point

756
00:33:31,020 --> 00:33:28,600
they would be deluded and therefore

757
00:33:33,540 --> 00:33:31,030
acting unconsciously and it's a very

758
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:33,550
general thing but I just wanted to raise

759
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:37,330
that there is a general point and well

760
00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:39,160
this is also an interesting point about

761
00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:41,500
the useful idiot versus the lifetime

762
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:45,190
player you know so the useful idiot

763
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:50,050
is someone who believes has just either

764
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:52,810
naively or has been somehow convinced or

765
00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:55,510
duped into believing what they're doing

766
00:34:00,090 --> 00:33:58,330
and the player which is again if we ever

767
00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:00,100
get to Peter lavinda we'll talk about is

768
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:02,590
maybe if somebody go you know he keeps

769
00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:05,110
popping up too many times in the wrong

770
00:34:09,930 --> 00:34:07,300
place in terms of orchestrating these

771
00:34:12,780 --> 00:34:09,940
things for me to just accept that he's

772
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:12,790
just kind of been duped himself you know

773
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:16,480
yeah yeah well I think it's both I think

774
00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:18,010
it's always gonna be buzz I mean if

775
00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:20,620
somebody is consciously deceiving they

776
00:34:24,389 --> 00:34:22,990
would have to also be deluded as well I

777
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:24,399
mean they would have to have some

778
00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:26,649
rationale for doing it that would be

779
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:28,630
fundamentally delusional I mean I do

780
00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:31,690
believe there's an in a moral sense that

781
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:35,080
we have biologically even we have a

782
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:37,210
sense of what's right and wrong in any

783
00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:40,000
given moment and so I think that any

784
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:42,940
kind of deception is is sourced in a

785
00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:45,850
self-deception got it emphasized that

786
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:48,820
that is a beautiful point I think it's a

787
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:51,850
central point to all of this and that is

788
00:34:57,570 --> 00:34:55,090
that if you don't this is that they're

789
00:35:00,690 --> 00:34:57,580
the best evidence we have suggests that

790
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:00,700
there is a moral imperative and again

791
00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:02,800
that's my approach is to say that's the

792
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:05,110
evidence folks the evidence if you look

793
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:08,110
at near-death experience if you look at

794
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:10,570
all the wisdom traditions if you look at

795
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:12,670
all the accumulated knowledge throughout

796
00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:16,600
time as well as most everyone's personal

797
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:19,990
experience there is this sense of what's

798
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:21,130
right and wrong

799
00:35:27,290 --> 00:35:22,720
and I think he just made a beautiful

800
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:27,300
point about deceiving someone is somehow

801
00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:30,730
violating that and I think that might

802
00:35:36,570 --> 00:35:34,630
get us closer to I hate to go with the

803
00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:36,580
definition of evil but that's where

804
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:39,550
everyone wants to go I think that starts

805
00:35:46,860 --> 00:35:42,880
creeping towards a definition of evil

806
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:46,870
and what I would add to it is that to me

807
00:35:54,450 --> 00:35:51,610
the distinction between darkness which

808
00:35:59,690 --> 00:35:54,460
is the force which is the energy which

809
00:36:02,760 --> 00:35:59,700
isn't evil it just is and the act of

810
00:36:05,070 --> 00:36:02,770
evil which I think we see in this world

811
00:36:08,090 --> 00:36:05,080
and we assume it just kind of mirrors

812
00:36:11,790 --> 00:36:08,100
itself in the extended world is an

813
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:11,800
attempt to the best way I can put it is

814
00:36:19,290 --> 00:36:14,970
to crush someone's soul is to somehow

815
00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:19,300
impede their progress towards something

816
00:36:26,610 --> 00:36:22,870
better and good and instead to try and

817
00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:26,620
pull them over towards the dark and

818
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:29,470
that's what I think in my mind

819
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:33,250
evil is evil is that is that verb is

820
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:37,080
that action that wants to pull a soul

821
00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:40,570
into the darkness because that's where

822
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:42,670
they feel most comfortable do you have

823
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:45,700
any thoughts on that is really loves

824
00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:48,370
company it's it's funny because I'm just

825
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:51,040
watching this Christmas Carol a couple

826
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:52,810
years ago the remail I was a revert

827
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:55,510
version of it was Guy Pearce and of

828
00:37:00,960 --> 00:36:58,320
course you know famous story screwed and

829
00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:00,970
it was occurring too while watching it's

830
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:02,980
very well done and incorporates sort of

831
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:05,710
you know the ghosts and alcohol aspects

832
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:08,110
of the story and kind of beefs them up

833
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:10,570
for our modern sensibilities it occurred

834
00:37:14,250 --> 00:37:12,160
to me while watching it that one of the

835
00:37:16,740 --> 00:37:14,260
reasons this story has such resonance

836
00:37:20,570 --> 00:37:16,750
over such a long period of time is it's

837
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:20,580
essentially true this is describing a

838
00:37:24,780 --> 00:37:23,170
mechanism within existence and you say

839
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:24,790
it's biological but it transcends

840
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:28,810
biology the spiritual principles that

841
00:37:33,630 --> 00:37:31,310
our wrongdoings will

842
00:37:36,220 --> 00:37:33,640
always catch up with us inevitably

843
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:36,230
weather if not in this life and in the

844
00:37:41,410 --> 00:37:39,410
next and we shall be the judge of those

845
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:41,420
actions which is also embedded in that

846
00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:43,370
in that script isn't it right there

847
00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:46,340
won't be this white bearded guy on the

848
00:37:51,430 --> 00:37:48,820
cloud judging no you will judge yourself

849
00:37:53,170 --> 00:37:51,440
yeah and that's and it's because we're

850
00:37:55,810 --> 00:37:53,180
doing it to ourselves and what we do to

851
00:37:58,300 --> 00:37:55,820
others we're doing to ourselves and so I

852
00:38:02,790 --> 00:37:58,310
mean my riffing of what you were saying

853
00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:02,800
my sense of evil it relates very closely

854
00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:04,790
strongly to the distortion of reality

855
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,950
reality Distortion

856
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:09,200
and that was what I thought was going on

857
00:38:13,630 --> 00:38:11,330
to the vendor and it was crazy making he

858
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:13,640
was distorting reality around Crowley

859
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:16,490
and spinning it this way and now to try

860
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:18,530
and wasn't just to win an argument like

861
00:38:22,270 --> 00:38:20,450
I've seen that babe you know I know what

862
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,280
someone's trying to win an argument it's

863
00:38:26,350 --> 00:38:24,320
kind of easy to deal with this was much

864
00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:26,360
slippery he was trying to actually

865
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:28,790
maintain a version of reality that was

866
00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:31,610
false and to make me think that I was

867
00:38:36,910 --> 00:38:34,070
wrong not to win the argument but to

868
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,920
just undermine my sense of what was true

869
00:38:41,230 --> 00:38:39,200
and what was real that was my sense

870
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:41,240
what's going on even though it was kind

871
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:42,770
of an odd cold perception that

872
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:44,510
management like a very skilled

873
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,760
practitioner of perception management

874
00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:48,320
which of course is what you know our

875
00:38:53,740 --> 00:38:51,220
cult ISM and magic is closely related to

876
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:53,750
manipulating reality by manipulating

877
00:38:58,810 --> 00:38:56,450
people's perceptions let me ask you to

878
00:38:59,920 --> 00:38:58,820
back up a little bit set up the story a

879
00:39:02,650 --> 00:38:59,930
little bit a little bit of the

880
00:39:05,830 --> 00:39:02,660
background and then walk people through

881
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:05,840
the exchange with levander who is levin

882
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:08,810
de and then how would the exchange kind

883
00:39:15,370 --> 00:39:11,810
of builds because it has a tempo like a

884
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:15,380
story in and of itself all right well I

885
00:39:21,790 --> 00:39:18,050
said I knew then I talked to him first

886
00:39:24,250 --> 00:39:21,800
or me rather back in 2009 helpful to his

887
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:24,260
people that were loved and very well

888
00:39:29,770 --> 00:39:27,010
known for sinister force astrology

889
00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:29,780
before that he wrote a book on Nazism

890
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:32,150
that Norman Mailer provided a foreword

891
00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:36,350
for and he's more recently written these

892
00:39:41,410 --> 00:39:39,020
books about Lovecraft and UFOs with Tom

893
00:39:43,930 --> 00:39:41,420
DeLonge he's written books about Kenneth

894
00:39:45,740 --> 00:39:43,940
Grant also had a long and illustrious

895
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:45,750
own quote

896
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:48,210
he's also got this shadowy side to us

897
00:39:52,460 --> 00:39:50,130
before you get to the shadowy side I

898
00:39:55,220 --> 00:39:52,470
mean again for the product for just the

899
00:39:57,650 --> 00:39:55,230
kind of average person Peter the vendee

900
00:40:00,500 --> 00:39:57,660
is one of us right he's out there in

901
00:40:03,830 --> 00:40:00,510
this kind of alt conspiracy thing

902
00:40:07,310 --> 00:40:03,840
telling you giving you the goods on JFK

903
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:07,320
and writing about sinister forces and

904
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:10,560
these crazy people and Peter Levin de is

905
00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:13,140
one of us and then you know he comes

906
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,020
along with the it loan lo and behold he

907
00:40:20,210 --> 00:40:18,240
pops up with the Tom DeLonge thing and

908
00:40:22,610 --> 00:40:20,220
his story is well you know the phone

909
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:22,620
rang and it was Tom DeLonge and I said

910
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:24,990
it talked long it can't be and I hung up

911
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:27,210
the phone and then he called me back and

912
00:40:33,050 --> 00:40:29,910
he said yes it really is Tom DeLonge

913
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:33,060
from blink 182 and Peter we have to get

914
00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:35,130
to the bottom of this UFO thing and

915
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:37,740
Peter goes yeah you're right tom we

916
00:40:41,150 --> 00:40:40,410
should go to the CIA and get the real

917
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:41,160
story

918
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:44,970
so Peter Levin de represents if people

919
00:40:51,890 --> 00:40:47,670
don't know he represents this kind of

920
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:51,900
one of us conspiracy alt you know

921
00:40:59,090 --> 00:40:55,710
narrative guy he's on our side right

922
00:41:02,330 --> 00:40:59,100
which makes this exchange that you have

923
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:02,340
with them about Crowley a million times

924
00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:05,820
more interesting sure sure

925
00:41:09,890 --> 00:41:07,590
I mean yeah he's probably one of the

926
00:41:13,070 --> 00:41:09,900
fear for central figures or has been in

927
00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:13,080
in the alternate perceptions community a

928
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:16,350
conspiracy forces and so on right out

929
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:18,810
there I actually was never that

930
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:21,210
impressed by sinister forces and I

931
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:24,290
wasn't sure why I just didn't feel

932
00:41:32,780 --> 00:41:27,060
somehow I just felt like a shopping list

933
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:32,790
of you know data so it felt lifeless but

934
00:41:38,410 --> 00:41:34,890
I did have good conversation with allah

935
00:41:42,380 --> 00:41:38,420
banda and he's clearly a very smart guy

936
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:42,390
the last time I spoke to him on the limo

937
00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:45,510
list I did bring out the book the

938
00:41:50,030 --> 00:41:47,340
possibility that he was an intelligence

939
00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:50,040
operative but not as a question I cashed

940
00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:52,740
it in such a way that I it was safe for

941
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:55,020
both of us but just you know have you

942
00:41:57,710 --> 00:41:56,250
ever been asked that you're an

943
00:41:58,980 --> 00:41:57,720
intelligence operative because there's

944
00:42:01,500 --> 00:41:58,990
an awful lot of you know

945
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:01,510
weird things around your life but anyway

946
00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:04,240
that that yeah that was as close as I

947
00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:06,310
got to a diuretic confrontation until

948
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:08,380
this happened this this thread and this

949
00:42:13,110 --> 00:42:11,050
happened you know innocently and

950
00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:13,120
organically enough just because I was

951
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:15,190
researching Crowley and these possible

952
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:17,200
things and as I was reaching out to a

953
00:42:21,150 --> 00:42:18,790
number of people and the vendor seemed

954
00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:21,160
an obvious person so I sent him an email

955
00:42:27,090 --> 00:42:24,760
just bringing out this you know have you

956
00:42:28,860 --> 00:42:27,100
ever considered this possibility that

957
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:28,870
Crowley might have bought okay again I'm

958
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:30,130
gonna have to drag you through this

959
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:32,560
backstory in here it's your work okay so

960
00:42:39,090 --> 00:42:35,470
all credit to you Jason but the back

961
00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:39,100
story is that if you start looking at

962
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,640
the weaponized systemic abuse of

963
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:44,560
children in our culture what that might

964
00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:46,720
mean for politics what that might mean

965
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:50,500
in terms of power and and then this

966
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:52,210
extended part of it that you don't

967
00:42:56,730 --> 00:42:53,920
really get into too much he's extended

968
00:43:01,260 --> 00:42:56,740
realms Crowley is somebody who kind of

969
00:43:03,330 --> 00:43:01,270
starts coming in through in some weird

970
00:43:05,550 --> 00:43:03,340
ways you know that you just wouldn't

971
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:05,560
expect and then if you look at like you

972
00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:09,510
did the scholars the Crowley scholars

973
00:43:17,730 --> 00:43:14,070
they really come up in a very kind of

974
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:17,740
apologetics kind of he wasn't that bad

975
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:21,040
you don't really understand him kind of

976
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:24,250
thing and Peter Levin de-what youth

977
00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:26,950
where would you stake him in that in

978
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:31,150
that kind of plethora of quote-unquote

979
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:34,240
Crowley scholars where does he stand and

980
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:38,970
why did you reach out to him he's not

981
00:43:44,460 --> 00:43:42,070
technically gone he hasn't written about

982
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:44,470
currently very directly but he has

983
00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:45,910
written a whole book about Kenneth's

984
00:43:51,180 --> 00:43:49,420
Grant who was Crowley's successor and of

985
00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:51,190
course he's written a lot about occult

986
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:52,900
is I mean since the forces as a whole

987
00:43:58,140 --> 00:43:56,050
trilogy about sinister forces and the

988
00:44:00,900 --> 00:43:58,150
overlap with alcoholism and intelligence

989
00:44:03,180 --> 00:44:00,910
agency so it's his field it's absolutely

990
00:44:09,090 --> 00:44:03,190
its field like one of the things that's

991
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:09,100
been kind of tossed around is this idea

992
00:44:18,370 --> 00:44:12,650
of whether Crowley himself wasn't

993
00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:18,380
with sexual molestation sexual abuse sex

994
00:44:23,620 --> 00:44:21,260
magic with little kids so that's what

995
00:44:25,630 --> 00:44:23,630
you prob'ly man right that's what I

996
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:25,640
probed him on and there was a larger

997
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:27,890
question is it all cultism in general

998
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:29,570
you know how much of an overlap was

999
00:44:34,810 --> 00:44:32,090
there was alcoholism and the sexual

1000
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:34,820
abuse of children whether or not it was

1001
00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:37,040
institutionalized and systematized by

1002
00:44:41,230 --> 00:44:39,230
these intelligence operations that I've

1003
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:41,240
been tracking and which Levin to himself

1004
00:44:45,970 --> 00:44:43,870
had supposedly been tracking also

1005
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:45,980
alright so he just seemed an obvious

1006
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:51,170
person to go to and I knew him now his

1007
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:55,580
his tack was first of all to defend

1008
00:44:59,860 --> 00:44:58,010
Crowley or at least suggest I was

1009
00:45:02,470 --> 00:44:59,870
barking up the wrong tree because there

1010
00:45:05,230 --> 00:45:02,480
was no real evidence to suggest and in

1011
00:45:07,570 --> 00:45:05,240
the kind for Crowley he just talked a

1012
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:07,580
lot about stuff and that was near people

1013
00:45:11,770 --> 00:45:10,130
always took him to literally that kind

1014
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:11,780
of anger approach which I was already

1015
00:45:15,850 --> 00:45:14,150
familiar with hold on though because we

1016
00:45:17,740 --> 00:45:15,860
we got I mean I don't know if I'm

1017
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:17,750
messing this up by interrupting you all

1018
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:20,960
the time but you're just you're breezing

1019
00:45:26,590 --> 00:45:23,930
past all these fantastic points and the

1020
00:45:30,730 --> 00:45:26,600
first one is right there is that it's

1021
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:30,740
almost like a frickin playbook Jason so

1022
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:32,960
the first the first is kind of this

1023
00:45:37,870 --> 00:45:35,570
patronizing tone that comes through in

1024
00:45:39,550 --> 00:45:37,880
these emails like kid you don't know

1025
00:45:41,980 --> 00:45:39,560
what you're talking about so you just

1026
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:41,990
you just need to back up because you

1027
00:45:45,610 --> 00:45:43,250
just don't know what you're talking

1028
00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:45,620
about right that's the first line of I'm

1029
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:48,860
Peter Levin de you're a guy who reached

1030
00:45:53,470 --> 00:45:50,450
out to me I get a ton of these emails

1031
00:45:55,660 --> 00:45:53,480
kid why don't you just move on right it

1032
00:45:57,850 --> 00:45:55,670
was I mean that was the feeling I said

1033
00:46:00,310 --> 00:45:57,860
it was a little hard to gauge how much I

1034
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:00,320
was reacting a bit neurotically cuz I'm

1035
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:03,050
an issues as father or older but you

1036
00:46:07,180 --> 00:46:05,090
know that how much of that I was

1037
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:07,190
projecting you can never be sure that's

1038
00:46:12,010 --> 00:46:09,770
part of a very skillful you know

1039
00:46:13,870 --> 00:46:12,020
psychological handling of someone by the

1040
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:13,880
end you know jumping to the end I really

1041
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:16,010
felt like I was half handled by the

1042
00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:19,850
vendor right by a master to the contrary

1043
00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:22,670
I thought you handled him better than

1044
00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:25,100
anyone I've seen because again we can go

1045
00:46:28,420 --> 00:46:26,390
through these

1046
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:28,430
emails but it's probably too much to do

1047
00:46:33,370 --> 00:46:30,410
on this show but there's round after

1048
00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:33,380
round where you say well wait a minute

1049
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:36,470
right from his own Diaries here her his

1050
00:46:42,519 --> 00:46:39,650
admissions that he diddled his words

1051
00:46:45,279 --> 00:46:42,529
Crowley's words children here is his

1052
00:46:48,970 --> 00:46:45,289
acknowledgment that he allowed children

1053
00:46:53,170 --> 00:46:48,980
to be present during at least be present

1054
00:46:55,690 --> 00:46:53,180
if not involved in these sex magic

1055
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:55,700
rituals if were to call them that so

1056
00:47:01,839 --> 00:46:58,130
you're hitting him with fact after fact

1057
00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:01,849
that is directly thoroughly referenced

1058
00:47:07,930 --> 00:47:05,390
in his work and his deflections are more

1059
00:47:11,650 --> 00:47:07,940
and more telling of kind of a desperate

1060
00:47:15,779 --> 00:47:11,660
attempt to get you to buy into this

1061
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,789
narrative it just doesn't hold hmm well

1062
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:18,079
this is because there's been a sea

1063
00:47:22,569 --> 00:47:20,000
change in the years since then because

1064
00:47:24,819 --> 00:47:22,579
when that discussion first happened and

1065
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:24,829
I and I put it online with lenders

1066
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:26,450
permission which just kind of seemed

1067
00:47:31,089 --> 00:47:28,730
surprising in retrospect there were

1068
00:47:32,859 --> 00:47:31,099
certainly people saying oh you care the

1069
00:47:35,049 --> 00:47:32,869
vendor came off much better than you did

1070
00:47:37,150 --> 00:47:35,059
and you you know basically and that they

1071
00:47:39,789 --> 00:47:37,160
didn't feel that they were just the

1072
00:47:42,490 --> 00:47:39,799
vendors lackeys either was even people

1073
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:42,500
that followed my blog it definitely was

1074
00:47:46,839 --> 00:47:44,450
definitely wasn't the anonymous feeling

1075
00:47:49,450 --> 00:47:46,849
and I didn't feel at the end of it like

1076
00:47:51,730 --> 00:47:49,460
had scored a victory I I just I wasn't

1077
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:51,740
even sure what had happened to be honest

1078
00:47:55,690 --> 00:47:53,650
so that's what I mean by handle I felt

1079
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:55,700
psychologically I had been manipulated

1080
00:48:00,579 --> 00:47:58,400
quite a lot and yes I saw I was

1081
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,589
definitely making persuasive argument

1082
00:48:04,779 --> 00:48:02,240
and he was doing Zach you arias saying

1083
00:48:06,579 --> 00:48:04,789
but I couldn't be sure if others were

1084
00:48:08,890 --> 00:48:06,589
able to see that and it wasn't clear

1085
00:48:10,779 --> 00:48:08,900
that they had I mean this well that's a

1086
00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:10,789
whole other level to this thing that we

1087
00:48:14,589 --> 00:48:12,140
could kind of talk about because the

1088
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:14,599
edge that you're I love how you said

1089
00:48:19,359 --> 00:48:16,730
before you know the thin edge and the

1090
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:19,369
thin edge that you're playing it's never

1091
00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:20,930
gonna be popular never and people are

1092
00:48:26,859 --> 00:48:24,230
never gonna you know in droves flock to

1093
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:26,869
Jason Horsley and go oh wow he totally

1094
00:48:32,380 --> 00:48:29,210
nailed it I mean it's so much of a

1095
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:32,390
paradigm shift for people but I think

1096
00:48:38,810 --> 00:48:35,390
that we're where you're really at is

1097
00:48:43,370 --> 00:48:38,820
playing for the very thin

1098
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:43,380
minority of people who really see it for

1099
00:48:49,220 --> 00:48:46,020
what it is because when I read that post

1100
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:49,230
I immediately saw it for what it is and

1101
00:48:56,090 --> 00:48:52,610
it just further cemented these

1102
00:48:59,480 --> 00:48:56,100
suspicions I had had because Peter

1103
00:49:03,950 --> 00:48:59,490
lavinda did appear to me like so many of

1104
00:49:06,620 --> 00:49:03,960
these CIA lifetime players who as you

1105
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:06,630
explained in another excellent post on

1106
00:49:15,860 --> 00:49:11,090
your website use 95 percent truth and

1107
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:15,870
five to ten percent orchestrated

1108
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:19,470
narrative controlled narrative in order

1109
00:49:25,010 --> 00:49:23,520
to shape the story and you know I don't

1110
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:25,020
know if we want to dive into that right

1111
00:49:29,150 --> 00:49:26,310
away or if we want to go in a different

1112
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:29,160
direction but you know how effective you

1113
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:33,210
can be with 90 to 95 percent just true

1114
00:49:39,530 --> 00:49:36,330
agree with you and win your trust so

1115
00:49:41,740 --> 00:49:39,540
that I can then use that to kind of

1116
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:41,750
switch things in a different way

1117
00:49:53,060 --> 00:49:50,880
mm-hmm yes well it's spin my sense with

1118
00:49:54,490 --> 00:49:53,070
that with middle evander and he did help

1119
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:54,500
me see something

1120
00:50:01,360 --> 00:49:59,040
ironically is is that I started to get a

1121
00:50:03,380 --> 00:50:01,370
sense that it was to do with ideological

1122
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:03,390
affiliation if you like that the

1123
00:50:09,740 --> 00:50:07,380
levander my my impression anyways is

1124
00:50:12,590 --> 00:50:09,750
ideologically affiliated with the occult

1125
00:50:15,710 --> 00:50:12,600
values and systems and methodologies the

1126
00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:15,720
crowling himself was a pioneer of and so

1127
00:50:20,660 --> 00:50:17,640
he can dodge this and that by saying

1128
00:50:25,150 --> 00:50:20,670
he's never been a curly advocate and and

1129
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:25,160
and so on but he's perpetuating the same

1130
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:29,040
memes and I think that that's what

1131
00:50:34,070 --> 00:50:32,160
essentially he was defending but what

1132
00:50:37,250 --> 00:50:34,080
would that ideology be I see I think

1133
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:37,260
people struggle with that it's like okay

1134
00:50:43,390 --> 00:50:41,490
he appears to be having some agenda that

1135
00:50:46,340 --> 00:50:43,400
we have traditionally historically

1136
00:50:49,250 --> 00:50:46,350
aligned with a certain group of US

1137
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:49,260
intelligence agents that are driving a

1138
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:50,640
certain agenda

1139
00:50:55,460 --> 00:50:52,650
but I think this is again where it gets

1140
00:50:58,910 --> 00:50:55,470
into the evil thing we for the most part

1141
00:51:01,970 --> 00:50:58,920
have associated that agenda with with

1142
00:51:04,029 --> 00:51:01,980
evil with you know deception with the

1143
00:51:07,009 --> 00:51:04,039
secret overthrow of governments of

1144
00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:07,019
secret pacts and societies that others

1145
00:51:13,849 --> 00:51:10,680
aren't aware of so I don't know what

1146
00:51:16,370 --> 00:51:13,859
ideology you're what other ideology

1147
00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:16,380
you're referring to but that's generally

1148
00:51:21,799 --> 00:51:18,390
not an ideology that most of us think of

1149
00:51:24,289 --> 00:51:21,809
as something good it's really as

1150
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:24,299
complicated into really deep here

1151
00:51:29,630 --> 00:51:27,119
because I mean this - I see this like

1152
00:51:35,539 --> 00:51:29,640
this - things going on here one is an

1153
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,549
ideology that is almost reveal of all I

1154
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:38,160
think which is the doing that

1155
00:51:42,620 --> 00:51:40,380
intelligence agencies and still they

1156
00:51:43,220 --> 00:51:42,630
have an ideology and it's still a

1157
00:51:45,289 --> 00:51:43,230
cuddler

1158
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:45,299
first of all they have the first cover

1159
00:51:48,650 --> 00:51:47,130
which is that they're the good guys and

1160
00:51:51,049 --> 00:51:48,660
they would never do any of that kind of

1161
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:51,059
stuff right underneath that once you

1162
00:51:55,579 --> 00:51:52,950
start seeing that that's [\h__\h] they

1163
00:51:57,620 --> 00:51:55,589
have this second ideology the second

1164
00:51:59,960 --> 00:51:57,630
layer which is we are the good guys but

1165
00:52:02,479 --> 00:51:59,970
we have to do evil stuff in order to

1166
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:02,489
fight evil we have to be as evil as the

1167
00:52:07,460 --> 00:52:04,920
people we're fighting so what me on that

1168
00:52:10,789 --> 00:52:07,470
wall you need me on that wall thing yes

1169
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:10,799
and so there's that and and that's

1170
00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:12,690
pretty persuasive I mean it's pretty

1171
00:52:16,849 --> 00:52:14,880
hard to argue against that more could

1172
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:16,859
see how for example if Levin there

1173
00:52:23,539 --> 00:52:20,150
really did believe Tom DeLonge his

1174
00:52:25,489 --> 00:52:23,549
fantasy a alien invasion of these evil

1175
00:52:28,999 --> 00:52:25,499
Lovecraftian overlords that want to

1176
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:29,009
completely destroy us then that would

1177
00:52:35,779 --> 00:52:32,249
justify any kind of human skullduggery

1178
00:52:38,089 --> 00:52:35,789
and you know evil doing if it would

1179
00:52:40,609 --> 00:52:38,099
prevent that from happening right so

1180
00:52:42,650 --> 00:52:40,619
that's the second layer underneath that

1181
00:52:44,650 --> 00:52:42,660
I believe this is the thing that we're

1182
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:44,660
not supposed to see unless we're ready

1183
00:52:49,359 --> 00:52:47,130
and that would be either ready to be

1184
00:52:52,009 --> 00:52:49,369
recruited or ready to be just completely

1185
00:52:54,019 --> 00:52:52,019
supplicant to it because we're so you

1186
00:52:57,349 --> 00:52:54,029
know pacified and horrified by it is

1187
00:52:59,089 --> 00:52:57,359
that they are they the human beings the

1188
00:53:02,880 --> 00:52:59,099
intelligence operatives or the alcohol

1189
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:02,890
agents of control are our overlords

1190
00:53:07,410 --> 00:53:04,810
whether or not they really have

1191
00:53:08,970 --> 00:53:07,420
connected you know to the Cthulhu or

1192
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:08,980
whether or not they really believe it

1193
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:12,610
and that they practice an ideological

1194
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:15,010
methodology which has to do with trauma

1195
00:53:19,980 --> 00:53:17,170
Genesis which is engineering or

1196
00:53:22,530 --> 00:53:19,990
accelerating evolution to the infliction

1197
00:53:24,930 --> 00:53:22,540
of violence and trauma specifically on

1198
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:24,940
children and that they're creating this

1199
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:27,310
great cosmic omelette that involves

1200
00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:30,160
breaking all of these eggs in order to

1201
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:32,800
do it and that I mean you'll find that

1202
00:53:37,260 --> 00:53:34,570
you can see that intersection with

1203
00:53:39,420 --> 00:53:37,270
Kenneth's grant for example that there's

1204
00:53:41,730 --> 00:53:39,430
a new stage of evolution coming on this

1205
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:41,740
planet and that the human form has to be

1206
00:53:45,650 --> 00:53:43,570
destroy you know I mean that that's

1207
00:53:48,270 --> 00:53:45,660
consistent with many different myths

1208
00:53:51,330 --> 00:53:48,280
including transhumanism right we're

1209
00:53:54,690 --> 00:53:51,340
transcending to another level beyond

1210
00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:54,700
flesh and blood so so that's the

1211
00:54:00,210 --> 00:53:56,440
ideology I'm talking about that they're

1212
00:54:02,490 --> 00:54:00,220
all this end justifies all means and

1213
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,500
even requires the worst means possible

1214
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:04,000
well again I think that's super

1215
00:54:09,660 --> 00:54:06,250
important but super deep but I think

1216
00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:09,670
it's really key how you layered those

1217
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:14,140
ideologies because I think I'm pretty

1218
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:17,310
much in sync with you you know level one

1219
00:54:23,490 --> 00:54:21,250
is the way I put it is you don't deserve

1220
00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:23,500
the truth you know which is like I'm

1221
00:54:26,850 --> 00:54:25,030
gonna lie to you because if you're

1222
00:54:30,620 --> 00:54:26,860
stupid enough to believe my lies then

1223
00:54:34,670 --> 00:54:30,630
you're just you don't matter and then

1224
00:54:37,860 --> 00:54:34,680
level two is you can't handle the truth

1225
00:54:41,070 --> 00:54:37,870
you want me on that wall you need me on

1226
00:54:44,070 --> 00:54:41,080
that wall and the third layer I think

1227
00:54:47,150 --> 00:54:44,080
relates back to what you said very early

1228
00:54:50,340 --> 00:54:47,160
on which i think is super key is that

1229
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:50,350
ultimately a spiritual self-deception

1230
00:54:56,310 --> 00:54:53,440
it's a buying into the spiritual

1231
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:56,320
materialism that I can gain I can

1232
00:55:04,380 --> 00:54:59,920
somehow accomplish an escape from my

1233
00:55:06,930 --> 00:55:04,390
dilemma from my existential dilemma by

1234
00:55:08,940 --> 00:55:06,940
transhumanism I can live forever or just

1235
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:08,950
by dominating everybody I can kind of

1236
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:12,010
control everything and of course I think

1237
00:55:16,500 --> 00:55:15,040
in our deep deep inside of us we

1238
00:55:19,050 --> 00:55:16,510
understand how

1239
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:19,060
futile that is because we're up against

1240
00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:22,450
that truth that we all know which is

1241
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:25,270
that you know we're not going to escape

1242
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:28,210
this you know it isn't gonna turn out

1243
00:55:33,690 --> 00:55:30,310
the way that we want no matter how we

1244
00:55:36,620 --> 00:55:33,700
think because it's not about doing

1245
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:36,630
accomplishing gathering and feeding that

1246
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:39,730
little me that I've created so I think

1247
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:41,590
the three layers that you have there

1248
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:44,170
kind of explain a lot and I don't get

1249
00:55:51,270 --> 00:55:48,310
too hung up on the all the permutations

1250
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:51,280
of layer threes that people can get you

1251
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:54,130
know transhumanism versus sex abuse of

1252
00:55:59,580 --> 00:55:57,130
children versus you know this occult

1253
00:56:01,970 --> 00:55:59,590
thing I mean it's it's limitless and I

1254
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:01,980
think we can kind of lose the thread by

1255
00:56:06,270 --> 00:56:04,330
tracing down you know where does that

1256
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,280
one lead where does that one lead they

1257
00:56:12,990 --> 00:56:08,160
all be the same place it's just a

1258
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:13,000
self-deception hmm yeah why we tend to

1259
00:56:17,820 --> 00:56:15,250
agree the reason I'm trying to give up

1260
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:17,830
writing books I try to at least start

1261
00:56:22,170 --> 00:56:19,570
writing about different things as the

1262
00:56:26,550 --> 00:56:22,180
last one maps of how is this idea you

1263
00:56:29,340 --> 00:56:26,560
know this is mapping hell but the only

1264
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:29,350
point a reason to map hell is to find

1265
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:32,050
the exit how we came in how we ended up

1266
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:34,210
here and that would be the way out to

1267
00:56:38,550 --> 00:56:35,950
and once you've done that and you leave

1268
00:56:41,250 --> 00:56:38,560
you just stop mapping it so yeah there's

1269
00:56:44,340 --> 00:56:41,260
a there's a fundamental reality to

1270
00:56:45,750 --> 00:56:44,350
existence which transcends morality we

1271
00:56:48,540 --> 00:56:45,760
could say but it's the source of

1272
00:56:50,850 --> 00:56:48,550
morality and and it's it's so accessible

1273
00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:50,860
to us because it's the nature and fabric

1274
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:54,730
of physical reality itself but of course

1275
00:56:59,730 --> 00:56:57,130
we are in this dissociated around

1276
00:57:04,200 --> 00:56:59,740
through this sustained perpetuated

1277
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:04,210
trauma and there are many many red

1278
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:06,310
herrings on the path back to the truth

1279
00:57:11,370 --> 00:57:09,010
so to some extent we don't have much

1280
00:57:14,130 --> 00:57:11,380
choice but to map that you know the

1281
00:57:18,690 --> 00:57:14,140
ramifications and the iterations of

1282
00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:18,700
delusion I haven't anyway and I and I do

1283
00:57:22,380 --> 00:57:20,460
think they all come back to this reality

1284
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:22,390
distortion like these three levels

1285
00:57:28,410 --> 00:57:24,400
they're all about the distortion of

1286
00:57:30,030 --> 00:57:28,420
reality and and how when we when we are

1287
00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:30,040
committed to this still

1288
00:57:36,210 --> 00:57:33,220
in reality not only do we justify any

1289
00:57:40,020 --> 00:57:36,220
level of abuses but they become

1290
00:57:44,310 --> 00:57:40,030
necessary because anyone who who touches

1291
00:57:47,070 --> 00:57:44,320
upon our experience with a breath of the

1292
00:57:49,620 --> 00:57:47,080
real or remind us reminds us of reality

1293
00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:49,630
or questions our distortions has to be

1294
00:57:55,950 --> 00:57:52,750
either destroyed banished or as you put

1295
00:57:58,880 --> 00:57:55,960
it you know co-opted and sucked into our

1296
00:58:03,360 --> 00:57:58,890
delusional state so we so we become

1297
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:03,370
destructive in that way as an over you

1298
00:58:10,860 --> 00:58:07,330
know overcharge self-protective strategy

1299
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:10,870
that just replicates and replicates you

1300
00:58:14,580 --> 00:58:12,010
know i thought i might pick up a little

1301
00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:14,590
bit on your point about staring into the

1302
00:58:21,210 --> 00:58:17,590
abyss because we do have this sense i

1303
00:58:23,850 --> 00:58:21,220
think and it's told to us in a number of

1304
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:23,860
different ways in terms of our culture

1305
00:58:28,350 --> 00:58:26,290
you know don't look at evil you know

1306
00:58:30,420 --> 00:58:28,360
don't stare into evil and you will

1307
00:58:32,190 --> 00:58:30,430
become the evil there's a certain

1308
00:58:36,180 --> 00:58:32,200
reality that we get that and we see

1309
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:36,190
people who do become consumed by that

1310
00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:38,290
which they study and it kind of becomes

1311
00:58:43,650 --> 00:58:41,350
a part of them I don't know I certainly

1312
00:58:45,930 --> 00:58:43,660
don't get that from your work I get that

1313
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:45,940
I get that you're moving through it I

1314
00:58:51,150 --> 00:58:47,920
don't feel like you're stopping any

1315
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:51,160
longer than you need to to you know

1316
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:53,170
really explore what it's there because

1317
00:58:59,540 --> 00:58:55,810
there's another danger and that is what

1318
00:59:02,370 --> 00:58:59,550
I see is the looking away from evil

1319
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:02,380
without regard for how that shadow may

1320
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:05,770
be manifested deep inside of us and how

1321
00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:09,040
it may be infecting you know the rest of

1322
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:11,470
our culture so I don't know I don't

1323
00:59:17,090 --> 00:59:14,530
worry too much about staring into the

1324
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:17,100
abyss as long as we're grounded on the

1325
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:19,810
way out which is always I think just to

1326
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:22,510
look up we don't have to we don't have

1327
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:24,160
to go there we can switch to at any

1328
00:59:28,530 --> 00:59:25,570
point you know you can listen to the

1329
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:28,540
podcast you can turn it off and go walk

1330
00:59:36,180 --> 00:59:31,210
on the beach you can you know turn off

1331
00:59:37,550 --> 00:59:36,190
the TV mm-hmm well I think so this is

1332
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:37,560
back to now the

1333
00:59:43,569 --> 00:59:40,690
vvill and the frame of evil because it

1334
00:59:45,579 --> 00:59:43,579
can be I mean there's a CS Lewis quote

1335
00:59:48,430 --> 00:59:45,589
which I thought was great which is the

1336
00:59:50,499 --> 00:59:48,440
demons have two ways of controlling us

1337
00:59:53,499 --> 00:59:50,509
one is to you know get us to just

1338
00:59:56,469 --> 00:59:53,509
dismiss them as unreal and the other is

1339
01:00:01,140 --> 00:59:56,479
sister gender and unhealthy obsession

1340
01:00:03,209 --> 01:00:01,150
with their existence and and so

1341
01:00:07,180 --> 01:00:03,219
certainly there are those who just

1342
01:00:09,729 --> 01:00:07,190
dismiss evil as an outdated moralistic

1343
01:00:13,799 --> 01:00:09,739
you know religious perspective and they

1344
01:00:16,329 --> 01:00:13,809
you know you can't really do that if

1345
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:16,339
except by not digging deep enough

1346
01:00:20,380 --> 01:00:17,930
because if you dig deep enough you'll

1347
01:00:22,569 --> 01:00:20,390
see that there's you know little things

1348
01:00:25,630 --> 01:00:22,579
going on in our world and even in our

1349
01:00:29,319 --> 01:00:25,640
towns that are just so horrific that we

1350
01:00:31,390 --> 01:00:29,329
really do need to use that word we have

1351
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:31,400
to use it but if that word has meaning

1352
01:00:37,930 --> 01:00:34,160
evil does have a know it when I see it

1353
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:37,940
kind of quality that's inescapable for

1354
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:39,680
all of us and I think that's almost like

1355
01:00:44,109 --> 01:00:42,410
a starting point in a way as horrific as

1356
01:00:47,469 --> 01:00:44,119
those things are it's almost like a

1357
01:00:51,870 --> 01:00:47,479
grounding to say oh yeah there is

1358
01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:51,880
something that I do understand as evil

1359
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:55,599
any spectrum you know has extremely

1360
01:01:00,699 --> 01:00:57,650
polarity if we accept there's a

1361
01:01:02,259 --> 01:01:00,709
wholesome goodness to life and there

1362
01:01:06,219 --> 01:01:02,269
could be a state where that is almost

1363
01:01:08,469 --> 01:01:06,229
completely absent so so it's to do with

1364
01:01:11,589 --> 01:01:08,479
an awareness of our capacity and our

1365
01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:11,599
limits and you know and this all has to

1366
01:01:16,059 --> 01:01:13,249
do with this question right you know how

1367
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:16,069
much are we willing to look at and my my

1368
01:01:19,779 --> 01:01:18,170
understanding and it seems logical to me

1369
01:01:21,670 --> 01:01:19,789
is we have to be willing to look at

1370
01:01:23,979 --> 01:01:21,680
everything you know if you think of the

1371
01:01:25,930 --> 01:01:23,989
human body and it's got some sort of you

1372
01:01:29,709 --> 01:01:25,940
know conditions or pathologies or what

1373
01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:29,719
have you not wanting to look at any of

1374
01:01:33,039 --> 01:01:31,249
those particular things particularly the

1375
01:01:35,709 --> 01:01:33,049
worst ones it's obviously going to be

1376
01:01:37,900 --> 01:01:35,719
counterproductive the worse it is the

1377
01:01:41,370 --> 01:01:37,910
more we need to look at it the thing is

1378
01:01:44,259 --> 01:01:41,380
is not to recall in horror and that's

1379
01:01:46,959 --> 01:01:44,269
yeah and that's the flipside of you know

1380
01:01:48,430 --> 01:01:46,969
people evil has a fascination and I'd

1381
01:01:51,279 --> 01:01:48,440
say the fascination is probably

1382
01:01:53,650 --> 01:01:51,289
compensated and goes back very far and

1383
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:53,660
deep think about fairy tales fairy tales

1384
01:01:58,250 --> 01:01:55,920
are written for children we

1385
01:02:00,289 --> 01:01:58,260
all this horrific imagery because it's

1386
01:02:02,089 --> 01:02:00,299
understood that childhood is horrifying

1387
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:02,099
there are things that happen to us as

1388
01:02:06,740 --> 01:02:03,690
children or that we start to perceive

1389
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:06,750
that horrifies and so fairytales provide

1390
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:09,359
a certain amount of relief from that but

1391
01:02:13,339 --> 01:02:11,130
they also potentially you know

1392
01:02:16,220 --> 01:02:13,349
dissociative fantasies that might feed a

1393
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:16,230
fascination for for evil or for trauma

1394
01:02:20,329 --> 01:02:18,480
and so we're in this world where as I

1395
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:20,339
said was Crowley you can see two sides

1396
01:02:24,049 --> 01:02:22,250
you can see that there are all these

1397
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:24,059
generations that people have fascinated

1398
01:02:29,390 --> 01:02:27,599
by Crowley and all he represents and all

1399
01:02:31,490 --> 01:02:29,400
that's kind of spewed out of the

1400
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:31,500
corollary apparatus and on the other

1401
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:33,839
hand and it isn't just Christian as I

1402
01:02:38,990 --> 01:02:37,200
say but you've got and it probably is

1403
01:02:41,150 --> 01:02:39,000
often a more wholesome perspective and

1404
01:02:45,470 --> 01:02:41,160
certainly more accurate that that's just

1405
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:45,480
toxic and and and and then polluted and

1406
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:49,410
basically evil so stay away from it but

1407
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:52,170
they're not willing I mean that

1408
01:02:57,260 --> 01:02:54,210
perspective isn't willing to understand

1409
01:03:01,940 --> 01:02:57,270
it just wants to dismiss and so what I

1410
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:01,950
found is what works for me is actually

1411
01:03:07,970 --> 01:03:04,530
and that this to me is the acid test is

1412
01:03:10,190 --> 01:03:07,980
can I look at the worst things that I

1413
01:03:11,780 --> 01:03:10,200
can find in my own life in my body and

1414
01:03:14,059 --> 01:03:11,790
my psyche of my past and my own

1415
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:14,069
behaviors and in the culture I've

1416
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:18,000
adopted and and unwittingly propagated

1417
01:03:24,339 --> 01:03:20,790
like a virus spreader can I look at

1418
01:03:28,250 --> 01:03:24,349
those things and not only not turn away

1419
01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:28,260
but not react right and it's very close

1420
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:30,569
to judge not lest ye be judged but it's

1421
01:03:34,940 --> 01:03:33,119
not judgment isn't bad and so it's not

1422
01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:34,950
that I'm not discerning I'm not saying

1423
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:37,680
I'm not judging in the sense I can judge

1424
01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:39,930
and say I just just to be toxic and

1425
01:03:44,510 --> 01:03:42,030
harmful that's a judgement but it's not

1426
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:44,520
a judgement like a condemnation like I

1427
01:03:47,660 --> 01:03:45,599
could never do that

1428
01:03:50,780 --> 01:03:47,670
that's not not part of me it's the

1429
01:03:52,839 --> 01:03:50,790
opposite so that I have that in me as

1430
01:03:57,260 --> 01:03:52,849
one cell in the whole body of humanity

1431
01:04:03,289 --> 01:03:57,270
that is part of my you know my my

1432
01:04:05,180 --> 01:04:03,299
existence can I actually can I I'm

1433
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:05,190
trying to say embrace but then we get on

1434
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:08,730
to this dangerous line of transgression

1435
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:09,370
so

1436
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:10,930
certainly not embracing sense of

1437
01:04:14,730 --> 01:04:12,490
celebrators embrace and sense of

1438
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:14,740
integrate God should just let it be

1439
01:04:20,490 --> 01:04:18,490
there so my the goodness of my system as

1440
01:04:25,700 --> 01:04:20,500
a whole system will be able to absorb it

1441
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:25,710
I think that's incredibly deep and it's

1442
01:04:34,020 --> 01:04:29,650
completely consistent with my

1443
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:34,030
spirituality which is that what it's

1444
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:37,690
really about here without and this is

1445
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:39,850
I'm probably edit this out because it's

1446
01:04:44,190 --> 01:04:42,370
a little bit too prescriptive like I

1447
01:04:46,350 --> 01:04:44,200
don't have I don't know the [\h__\h] mind

1448
01:04:49,020 --> 01:04:46,360
of God and you know I certainly I don't

1449
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:49,030
even know half of what I understand half

1450
01:04:55,230 --> 01:04:51,130
of what I read but what seems to make

1451
01:04:59,520 --> 01:04:55,240
sense to me is that the light ultimately

1452
01:05:02,400 --> 01:04:59,530
shines and that what we're experiencing

1453
01:05:05,220 --> 01:05:02,410
is a blockage of that light and the the

1454
01:05:07,740 --> 01:05:05,230
best way to it's an addition by

1455
01:05:09,210 --> 01:05:07,750
subtraction thing which is kind of what

1456
01:05:15,210 --> 01:05:09,220
I hear you saying with the integration

1457
01:05:18,570 --> 01:05:15,220
is letting the light do its thing which

1458
01:05:21,450 --> 01:05:18,580
is just you don't have to do you don't

1459
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:21,460
have to do anything you just have to

1460
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:25,390
disengage and it'll self correct let me

1461
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:28,090
let me play some more clips from your

1462
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:30,730
excellent podcast because I think I

1463
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:33,970
think you'll have a lot to say just by

1464
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:38,890
listening to these again well the first

1465
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:41,530
thing I heard or read or let him was was

1466
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:44,290
Crowley's book of the law and it did it

1467
01:05:49,980 --> 01:05:47,290
uplifted me I believe right away that I

1468
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:49,990
was prophesized in that book and so

1469
01:05:54,450 --> 01:05:51,850
after I read book of the law you could

1470
01:05:59,190 --> 01:05:54,460
say I embraced thelema I felt like I was

1471
01:06:01,770 --> 01:05:59,200
the successor to Crowley and I'm talking

1472
01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:01,780
to you about this now I honestly don't

1473
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:04,960
know at this point how much if there was

1474
01:06:10,620 --> 01:06:06,850
any truth in that and if so how much

1475
01:06:12,750 --> 01:06:10,630
because I don't I'm weary of throwing

1476
01:06:14,490 --> 01:06:12,760
babies out with bath horses an awful lot

1477
01:06:18,750 --> 01:06:14,500
of bath water and there's a lot of dead

1478
01:06:22,410 --> 01:06:18,760
babies in our culture all I know for

1479
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:22,420
sure is that Crowley was the worst kind

1480
01:06:24,569 --> 01:06:22,930
of role

1481
01:06:26,549 --> 01:06:24,579
model and whatever came through him

1482
01:06:28,799 --> 01:06:26,559
whatever possible truth there was in it

1483
01:06:32,790 --> 01:06:28,809
it would be like water coming through a

1484
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:32,800
rusty contaminated pipe that had had

1485
01:06:36,359 --> 01:06:35,710
been hadn't been used since the Black

1486
01:06:38,730 --> 01:06:36,369
Death

1487
01:06:41,370 --> 01:06:38,740
right so it's still the water might

1488
01:06:42,930 --> 01:06:41,380
might have been clear once upon a time

1489
01:06:45,900 --> 01:06:42,940
but once it's come out the other end of

1490
01:06:48,420 --> 01:06:45,910
that pipe it's just toxic that's how I

1491
01:06:51,329 --> 01:06:48,430
feel about Crowley now and that's based

1492
01:06:54,059 --> 01:06:51,339
on a number of things that I recount in

1493
01:06:57,030 --> 01:06:54,069
Vice of Kings the two main areas I

1494
01:06:59,099 --> 01:06:57,040
suppose my own life like I I put my own

1495
01:07:00,750 --> 01:06:59,109
life under the microscope in terms of

1496
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:00,760
Crowley's influence and how I emulated

1497
01:07:05,370 --> 01:07:03,250
Crowley to the point for example of

1498
01:07:08,309 --> 01:07:05,380
committing an animal sacrifice without

1499
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:08,319
realizing that I done so which would

1500
01:07:12,510 --> 01:07:10,089
raise a question mark for your listeners

1501
01:07:15,089 --> 01:07:12,520
but that's how unconscious it can be if

1502
01:07:17,220 --> 01:07:15,099
we get colonized by you know a toxic

1503
01:07:19,799 --> 01:07:17,230
philosophy and and many other ways in

1504
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:19,809
tattoos and things like that this kind I

1505
01:07:24,690 --> 01:07:22,720
really just took on the Crowley and in a

1506
01:07:27,359 --> 01:07:24,700
deep way without really believing I was

1507
01:07:29,789 --> 01:07:27,369
doing so I thought I was just as I say

1508
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:29,799
picking up where he left off so I look

1509
01:07:33,539 --> 01:07:31,450
at that and the other thing I look at

1510
01:07:37,710 --> 01:07:33,549
his Crowley's life and all of the

1511
01:07:40,289 --> 01:07:37,720
evidence for not just the malevolent

1512
01:07:44,099 --> 01:07:40,299
nature of Crowley himself and of his

1513
01:07:46,049 --> 01:07:44,109
behaviors and his abuses of power self

1514
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:46,059
abuses and I believe abuses of others

1515
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:50,290
but also his compatibility wears or his

1516
01:07:55,770 --> 01:07:53,200
alignment was the dominant super culture

1517
01:08:03,359 --> 01:07:55,780
by which I mean is a hidden culture that

1518
01:08:06,329 --> 01:08:03,369
rules over this culture well there's a

1519
01:08:09,569 --> 01:08:06,339
lot unpack they're fantastic what are

1520
01:08:13,289 --> 01:08:09,579
your thoughts listening to it again well

1521
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:13,299
gosh like I said is just there's just a

1522
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:17,290
lot I mean I guess I'm just having for

1523
01:08:23,789 --> 01:08:19,630
the first tourist response which is you

1524
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:23,799
know how in the clear am i close to the

1525
01:08:33,150 --> 01:08:27,130
exit am i how they sculptural

1526
01:08:35,729 --> 01:08:33,160
programming have close to we all because

1527
01:08:36,900 --> 01:08:35,739
what are what are your thoughts when you

1528
01:08:39,290 --> 01:08:36,910
say that

1529
01:08:43,590 --> 01:08:39,300
because I'm always a little bit

1530
01:08:46,620 --> 01:08:43,600
suspicious of the cultural overlay

1531
01:08:49,110 --> 01:08:46,630
I mean it's so it's so oppressive

1532
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:49,120
especially like right now with what

1533
01:08:54,570 --> 01:08:51,250
we're going through but at the same time

1534
01:08:56,850 --> 01:08:54,580
it feels like you know back to the three

1535
01:08:58,920 --> 01:08:56,860
layers it feels like a head-fake it's

1536
01:09:00,570 --> 01:08:58,930
like that's not what it's about that's

1537
01:09:02,790 --> 01:09:00,580
not what it's about it's just another

1538
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:02,800
form of deception where are you at with

1539
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:05,530
that what what do you mean what's

1540
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:09,250
another form of deception well to like a

1541
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:11,770
minute ago we were talking about the

1542
01:09:19,860 --> 01:09:16,930
personal spirituality of evil and the

1543
01:09:21,870 --> 01:09:19,870
integration so however it forms whether

1544
01:09:25,230 --> 01:09:21,880
it's a little evil we have or whether

1545
01:09:28,140 --> 01:09:25,240
it's a big evil and it comes up and we

1546
01:09:32,510 --> 01:09:28,150
deal with it by letting go of it just

1547
01:09:35,820 --> 01:09:32,520
letting it merge back in you know and I

1548
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,830
totally I think that's really really

1549
01:09:41,340 --> 01:09:37,600
deep from a personal spiritual

1550
01:09:43,710 --> 01:09:41,350
standpoint I get the cultural part you

1551
01:09:46,290 --> 01:09:43,720
know I get it every day and every time I

1552
01:09:50,370 --> 01:09:46,300
turn on the computer or turn on the fire

1553
01:09:53,100 --> 01:09:50,380
cube the Amazon fire cube but then I

1554
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:53,110
also wonder if sometimes that feels like

1555
01:09:58,920 --> 01:09:55,690
I'm being pulled into this spiritual

1556
01:10:01,440 --> 01:09:58,930
materialism again where I need to square

1557
01:10:03,150 --> 01:10:01,450
off with Peter Levin de because he's

1558
01:10:05,490 --> 01:10:03,160
trying to control the narrative and

1559
01:10:07,980 --> 01:10:05,500
let's go get those freakin Catholic

1560
01:10:11,250 --> 01:10:07,990
priests because they're deceiving us

1561
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:11,260
when to your point for the deception is

1562
01:10:17,730 --> 01:10:15,370
always only a self-deception yeah yeah

1563
01:10:21,180 --> 01:10:17,740
so I think what I mean my response areas

1564
01:10:25,050 --> 01:10:21,190
is certainly know about blaming the

1565
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:25,060
culture or identifying the cause of my

1566
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:27,730
distortions in the culture except so far

1567
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:30,880
as it's a mirror and and there is there

1568
01:10:35,070 --> 01:10:32,650
is a causative as well as the choral

1569
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:35,080
development I was once a child and I was

1570
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:36,970
in cultured in a way that was traumatic

1571
01:10:44,970 --> 01:10:40,810
and so on so and that's helpful to my

1572
01:10:46,980 --> 01:10:44,980
own integration process and my becoming

1573
01:10:49,740 --> 01:10:46,990
conscious process is to see those things

1574
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:49,750
but certainly no it's not about the

1575
01:10:53,620 --> 01:10:50,210
culture

1576
01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:53,630
bad you know back to nature and I'm kind

1577
01:11:00,580 --> 01:10:57,070
of feeling that orientation currently

1578
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:00,590
again it's about how how close they are

1579
01:11:06,010 --> 01:11:02,810
we willing to look at the culture to see

1580
01:11:08,170 --> 01:11:06,020
what I call the super culture because

1581
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:08,180
you know most of the analyses if you can

1582
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:10,960
even call them there but the growing

1583
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:13,370
perspective on in the world now and a

1584
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:16,960
lot of it gets through the internet but

1585
01:11:22,180 --> 01:11:19,370
there's two things I want to mention

1586
01:11:24,190 --> 01:11:22,190
going on in the culture now one is we

1587
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:24,200
could say the qua non saying whatever

1588
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:26,090
you know just just to give a you know

1589
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:29,690
pin it and identification point but the

1590
01:11:34,090 --> 01:11:32,330
growing awareness of the toxicity of our

1591
01:11:36,820 --> 01:11:34,100
culture and of their hidden mashaa

1592
01:11:42,250 --> 01:11:36,830
nations of power abuse and all that and

1593
01:11:45,430 --> 01:11:42,260
the other is is harder to define but and

1594
01:11:48,820 --> 01:11:45,440
and it also has a kind of an type is an

1595
01:11:50,620 --> 01:11:48,830
anti patriarchal feeling but it is to do

1596
01:11:53,770 --> 01:11:50,630
with identity politics and the

1597
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:53,780
celebration of the self over everything

1598
01:11:59,470 --> 01:11:56,690
else right and and you know safe zones

1599
01:12:01,930 --> 01:11:59,480
and and and hate speech and political

1600
01:12:04,959 --> 01:12:01,940
correctness and you know that whole

1601
01:12:06,459 --> 01:12:04,969
thing right and they're both aspects of

1602
01:12:11,830 --> 01:12:06,469
the culture of course and I think that

1603
01:12:14,110 --> 01:12:11,840
they're both straps and they converge in

1604
01:12:15,970 --> 01:12:14,120
an interesting way because the problem

1605
01:12:17,890 --> 01:12:15,980
was like all the corn on saying and

1606
01:12:20,350 --> 01:12:17,900
resisted the you know the growing

1607
01:12:22,330 --> 01:12:20,360
awareness of the toxicity of the culture

1608
01:12:26,020 --> 01:12:22,340
that wants to identify

1609
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:26,030
name and expunge the evil within our

1610
01:12:31,660 --> 01:12:29,120
culture is it is it is scapegoating and

1611
01:12:34,450 --> 01:12:31,670
it's not really identifying how deep the

1612
01:12:36,850 --> 01:12:34,460
problem goes is but it's mistaking an

1613
01:12:40,150 --> 01:12:36,860
effect for a cause as in if our country

1614
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:40,160
is you know our world is mostly run by a

1615
01:12:45,430 --> 01:12:42,890
khaki stock or a stock resetting is the

1616
01:12:48,220 --> 01:12:45,440
word inner bye-bye pathological

1617
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:48,230
predators that's more of a symptom of

1618
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:50,510
something much deeper and as the cause

1619
01:12:55,770 --> 01:12:53,330
of so that that I don't think is ever

1620
01:13:00,250 --> 01:12:55,780
going to work just trying to actually

1621
01:13:02,530 --> 01:13:00,260
fix it by addressing the surface and

1622
01:13:04,060 --> 01:13:02,540
then on the other hand this celebration

1623
01:13:07,710 --> 01:13:04,070
of the identity clearly is

1624
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:07,720
itself a symptom of this crow Lea

1625
01:13:15,550 --> 01:13:12,530
cruelly kind of will to power pursuit of

1626
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:15,560
happiness will to power you know there

1627
01:13:20,650 --> 01:13:19,280
are almost different descriptions of the

1628
01:13:22,630 --> 01:13:20,660
same urge I think which is the

1629
01:13:27,610 --> 01:13:22,640
verification of the identity and our own

1630
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:27,620
personal drives over everything so the

1631
01:13:34,210 --> 01:13:30,730
point I'm trying to make here is is that

1632
01:13:36,310 --> 01:13:34,220
if we were if we start to really

1633
01:13:40,900 --> 01:13:36,320
identify what's going on in the culture

1634
01:13:47,020 --> 01:13:40,910
in a way that's more comprehensive and

1635
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:47,030
less reactive we'll see two things one

1636
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:49,490
we'll start to see just just how bad

1637
01:13:54,820 --> 01:13:51,770
things really are across the board and

1638
01:13:57,730 --> 01:13:54,830
it's in absolutely everything it is like

1639
01:14:00,640 --> 01:13:57,740
a virus or plutonium or something it

1640
01:14:02,590 --> 01:14:00,650
doesn't just hit certain individuals or

1641
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:02,600
certain populations it's it's throughout

1642
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:05,690
everything and and by extension it's in

1643
01:14:10,870 --> 01:14:08,570
us so the more we see how bad things are

1644
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:10,880
culturally and socially the more we're

1645
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:12,770
going to see if we're honestly looking

1646
01:14:16,990 --> 01:14:14,930
the more we're going to see how we're

1647
01:14:19,990 --> 01:14:17,000
carriers of that and that leaves us

1648
01:14:21,970 --> 01:14:20,000
nowhere to go actually because you

1649
01:14:23,710 --> 01:14:21,980
cannot then you can't say let's have a

1650
01:14:26,050 --> 01:14:23,720
revolution because you know you have to

1651
01:14:28,030 --> 01:14:26,060
admit you can create the revolution and

1652
01:14:30,100 --> 01:14:28,040
take out the power structures but you

1653
01:14:32,530 --> 01:14:30,110
will just build them in the image of the

1654
01:14:34,930 --> 01:14:32,540
thing you've taken down so it takes us

1655
01:14:37,870 --> 01:14:34,940
to a place of a really really difficult

1656
01:14:41,950 --> 01:14:37,880
place and it is a spiritual place it is

1657
01:14:44,860 --> 01:14:41,960
consistent with religious doctrine I was

1658
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:44,870
going to try and pick up on your your

1659
01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:46,880
really excellent point about those two

1660
01:14:52,210 --> 01:14:49,520
forces no I don't like to get too

1661
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:52,220
political because it just kind of I mean

1662
01:14:54,820 --> 01:14:53,120
there's so many different ways to

1663
01:14:57,070 --> 01:14:54,830
trigger people I'd rather trigger them

1664
01:14:58,270 --> 01:14:57,080
on more important things that they

1665
01:15:02,470 --> 01:14:58,280
haven't thought about before like

1666
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:02,480
Aleister Crowley and killing on which is

1667
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:05,090
just like an instant you know no stop

1668
01:15:09,850 --> 01:15:07,250
boom right to the end of the line kind

1669
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:09,860
of thing but I think your point is super

1670
01:15:16,030 --> 01:15:13,490
well taken about and if we were going to

1671
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:16,040
try and fold that into this conversation

1672
01:15:22,030 --> 01:15:17,850
I'd have to kind of wonder

1673
01:15:24,410 --> 01:15:22,040
aloud to you whether or not that

1674
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:24,420
orchestrated divisive nough --scent

1675
01:15:30,650 --> 01:15:27,690
another play in the playbook you know

1676
01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:30,660
it's that it's kind of two ways to stir

1677
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:34,800
up the natives and so we have the

1678
01:15:40,490 --> 01:15:37,650
cronyism do what thou wilt on one hand

1679
01:15:42,770 --> 01:15:40,500
and you'll have the you know grab the

1680
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:42,780
pitchforks we just have to get these

1681
01:15:47,690 --> 01:15:46,290
bastards on the other hand and that's

1682
01:15:50,030 --> 01:15:47,700
what you want you just want them

1683
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:50,040
fighting and you want them depressed and

1684
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:51,930
confused and they're just easier to

1685
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:54,170
control that way you don't want them

1686
01:15:58,910 --> 01:15:56,730
thinking deeply about things and

1687
01:16:01,900 --> 01:15:58,920
existential questions and you certainly

1688
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:01,910
don't want them somehow uniting on some

1689
01:16:09,530 --> 01:16:06,570
humanitarian deeply human sensibilities

1690
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:09,540
that we would say approach spirituality

1691
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:11,970
you just you definitely don't want that

1692
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:15,930
that's not good for business yeah well

1693
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:20,730
it's um it also prevents mapping what's

1694
01:16:24,410 --> 01:16:22,650
going on it prevents coherence cuz

1695
01:16:26,300 --> 01:16:24,420
you've got these two extremes and

1696
01:16:28,670 --> 01:16:26,310
they're not meeting if ICS Lewis with

1697
01:16:30,710 --> 01:16:28,680
the demons as well you know the truth

1698
01:16:33,170 --> 01:16:30,720
isn't that demons don't exist the truth

1699
01:16:35,570 --> 01:16:33,180
isn't that demons are super powerful and

1700
01:16:37,570 --> 01:16:35,580
need to be worshipped or or feared even

1701
01:16:41,020 --> 01:16:37,580
right it's the truth is somewhere

1702
01:16:43,460 --> 01:16:41,030
bringing these two perspectives together

1703
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:43,470
and what you're talking about there I've

1704
01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:45,930
written about that in the on my blog but

1705
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:48,450
it's also in 16 maps of how skismo

1706
01:16:52,850 --> 01:16:50,730
Genesis was the thing that Gregory

1707
01:16:57,500 --> 01:16:52,860
Bateson developed while he was working

1708
01:16:59,930 --> 01:16:57,510
for the OSS and we're really seeing the

1709
01:17:03,350 --> 01:16:59,940
evidence of it now as it is divine

1710
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:03,360
conquer boats to do you know the most

1711
01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:05,010
subtle levels as well all those

1712
01:17:10,540 --> 01:17:08,760
perspectives and and with groupings so

1713
01:17:13,190 --> 01:17:10,550
you know what you're describing that up

1714
01:17:16,010 --> 01:17:13,200
intensified polarization means it's

1715
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:16,020
harder and harder to find a position

1716
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:19,410
anywhere in the middle the space between

1717
01:17:26,060 --> 01:17:21,600
that that becomes less and less

1718
01:17:28,190 --> 01:17:26,070
populated and the the magnetic pull of

1719
01:17:30,050 --> 01:17:28,200
the two poles get stronger and stronger

1720
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:30,060
so so now

1721
01:17:34,790 --> 01:17:32,010
if you don't want to be seen as a trump

1722
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:34,800
I or am a guy or whatever then you've

1723
01:17:39,890 --> 01:17:37,530
got to double down on your you know

1724
01:17:41,290 --> 01:17:39,900
liberal progressivism otherwise right

1725
01:17:46,010 --> 01:17:41,300
you've got to have a strong opinion

1726
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:46,020
about something cuz one way or another

1727
01:17:49,850 --> 01:17:47,940
you'll get grouped on one side or the

1728
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:49,860
other hand there's a tendency to want to

1729
01:17:54,770 --> 01:17:52,530
gravitate because it's very scary to be

1730
01:17:57,830 --> 01:17:54,780
in the middle and potentially you get

1731
01:17:59,690 --> 01:17:57,840
scapegoated by both sides right so and

1732
01:18:02,240 --> 01:17:59,700
that happens internally as well we

1733
01:18:05,060 --> 01:18:02,250
listed we start going prematurely to

1734
01:18:07,100 --> 01:18:05,070
strong convictions on one side or the

1735
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:07,110
other rather than staying in this

1736
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,170
ambiguity about you know is it as if

1737
01:18:14,810 --> 01:18:12,480
bring about from the vendor that was one

1738
01:18:17,930 --> 01:18:14,820
of the tails really because I was I was

1739
01:18:19,550 --> 01:18:17,940
questioning I was asking questions and

1740
01:18:23,690 --> 01:18:19,560
it seemed that he was shutting down the

1741
01:18:26,900 --> 01:18:23,700
questioning and that's that's always

1742
01:18:28,700 --> 01:18:26,910
been my approach and I think that that's

1743
01:18:32,150 --> 01:18:28,710
the healthiest and the sane is to

1744
01:18:33,950 --> 01:18:32,160
approach to be constantly asking

1745
01:18:36,740 --> 01:18:33,960
questions and if the questions keep

1746
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:36,750
reading closer and closer to to some

1747
01:18:42,260 --> 01:18:39,570
kind of reality you don't ever have to

1748
01:18:44,270 --> 01:18:42,270
to finalize it and put a stamp on it and

1749
01:18:46,790 --> 01:18:44,280
say that's it now I know that evil

1750
01:18:48,980 --> 01:18:46,800
exists and it looks like this that and

1751
01:18:52,220 --> 01:18:48,990
the other alistair crowley in the OT or

1752
01:18:55,610 --> 01:18:52,230
whatever one does because then one

1753
01:18:57,710 --> 01:18:55,620
stopped questioning but you map and you

1754
01:19:00,380 --> 01:18:57,720
mark as you go okay so i've identified

1755
01:19:02,420 --> 01:19:00,390
those agents but you know there's still

1756
01:19:04,580 --> 01:19:02,430
more to uncover we don't know by the end

1757
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:04,590
of it everything could look completely

1758
01:19:10,090 --> 01:19:07,530
different of course but meantime we see

1759
01:19:12,140 --> 01:19:10,100
more and more about what we haven't seen

1760
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:12,150
whenever I talk to someone and they

1761
01:19:18,340 --> 01:19:14,610
they're quick to say oh no I don't doubt

1762
01:19:22,310 --> 01:19:18,350
I I'm a Christian I don't doubt my faith

1763
01:19:24,770 --> 01:19:22,320
you've lost the spiritual edge you you

1764
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:24,780
were kind of the person who says that's

1765
01:19:30,710 --> 01:19:27,810
the Zen mind beginner's mind you know

1766
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:30,720
like I'm always beginning I'm always

1767
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:33,570
wondering I'm always challenging in my

1768
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:36,170
beliefs there seems to be something

1769
01:19:41,750 --> 01:19:39,170
fundamentally spiritual about that and

1770
01:19:50,180 --> 01:19:41,760
especially when we contrast it with the

1771
01:19:52,970 --> 01:19:50,190
opposite that out which is belief as a

1772
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:52,980
vector of increasing disbelief which

1773
01:19:57,860 --> 01:19:55,290
spells void then we just have to keep

1774
01:20:01,700 --> 01:19:57,870
moving into this void where we

1775
01:20:05,060 --> 01:20:01,710
disbelieve we allow ourselves to come to

1776
01:20:06,380 --> 01:20:05,070
look at the non confirming evidence not

1777
01:20:08,750 --> 01:20:06,390
just looking at the evidence that

1778
01:20:12,050 --> 01:20:08,760
confirms and even this is just a little

1779
01:20:13,850 --> 01:20:12,060
bit and it is it's incredibly hard like

1780
01:20:17,060 --> 01:20:13,860
some I mean you talk about the very

1781
01:20:20,090 --> 01:20:17,070
specifics of you know levander and that

1782
01:20:22,730 --> 01:20:20,100
was one of the hardest experiences in

1783
01:20:26,750 --> 01:20:22,740
you know my work writing is actually

1784
01:20:28,700 --> 01:20:26,760
confronting another deception and not

1785
01:20:31,310 --> 01:20:28,710
knowing what to believe and but it

1786
01:20:34,220 --> 01:20:31,320
continues to this day and so working in

1787
01:20:36,500 --> 01:20:34,230
this field as we do we often don't know

1788
01:20:38,450 --> 01:20:36,510
are we speaking with somebody who's

1789
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:38,460
genuinely what they they say they are

1790
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:42,090
and and and how do you approach that you

1791
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:44,250
have to stay in this little place you

1792
01:20:48,620 --> 01:20:46,290
don't believe them and you don't take

1793
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:48,630
them at their word entirely because then

1794
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:50,250
you just get and you don't you know to

1795
01:20:55,730 --> 01:20:53,730
be overly polite and just keep to the

1796
01:20:57,770 --> 01:20:55,740
protocol if you see [\h__\h] you have to

1797
01:20:59,960 --> 01:20:57,780
call it but at the same time you don't

1798
01:21:01,670 --> 01:20:59,970
start shouting that they're a shell and

1799
01:21:04,610 --> 01:21:01,680
this that and the other because then

1800
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:04,620
you've lost your own footing your own

1801
01:21:10,190 --> 01:21:07,850
ground and that you know that's just

1802
01:21:13,070 --> 01:21:10,200
microcosm of this much larger thing

1803
01:21:14,780 --> 01:21:13,080
we're in we're in a time in history of

1804
01:21:17,870 --> 01:21:14,790
society what have you where everything

1805
01:21:20,780 --> 01:21:17,880
is increasingly unstable and liminal and

1806
01:21:23,480 --> 01:21:20,790
then we're in this vast universe where

1807
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:23,490
it's all unknown and then then we're in

1808
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:26,130
eternity when I we're completely at a

1809
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:29,250
loss to make sense of anything so and

1810
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:31,890
this is actually to a matter point this

1811
01:21:36,650 --> 01:21:34,290
is one of the the levels of deceptions

1812
01:21:40,130 --> 01:21:36,660
is mixing of levels so you'll find this

1813
01:21:43,310 --> 01:21:40,140
moral relativism around things which

1814
01:21:45,500 --> 01:21:43,320
uses the level of cosmic x-ray cosmic or

1815
01:21:47,690 --> 01:21:45,510
spiritual awareness to say well there is

1816
01:21:50,300 --> 01:21:47,700
no good and evil it's all one it's all

1817
01:21:52,669 --> 01:21:50,310
gone that's all god but they're applying

1818
01:21:55,790 --> 01:21:52,679
it to the social level

1819
01:21:59,270 --> 01:21:55,800
of raping and killing children not

1820
01:22:02,479 --> 01:21:59,280
directly but indirectly and in some

1821
01:22:04,540 --> 01:22:02,489
cases directly in some cases directly or

1822
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:04,550
close enough you can join the dots and

1823
01:22:09,979 --> 01:22:07,679
and then they're hypocrites and lies but

1824
01:22:12,830 --> 01:22:09,989
maybe deep rationalization and

1825
01:22:14,660 --> 01:22:12,840
delusional behind it but some level

1826
01:22:16,609 --> 01:22:14,670
often there's a conscious there was a

1827
01:22:20,959 --> 01:22:16,619
little sister conscious malevolence

1828
01:22:23,390 --> 01:22:20,969
going on there so you know I'm returning

1829
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:23,400
more and more to this idea of we're all

1830
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:25,530
just here to entertain each other and I

1831
01:22:30,169 --> 01:22:27,449
heard that quote from Shirley MacLaine

1832
01:22:34,429 --> 01:22:30,179
who if anyone remembers way back in the

1833
01:22:36,739 --> 01:22:34,439
70s was the first really celebrity to

1834
01:22:40,699 --> 01:22:36,749
kind of launch the New Age movement and

1835
01:22:42,589 --> 01:22:40,709
talk about astral projection and I heard

1836
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:42,599
this interview with her and that God was

1837
01:22:48,620 --> 01:22:46,010
really kind of looking to I guess

1838
01:22:50,330 --> 01:22:48,630
insight some kind of reaction about all

1839
01:22:52,279 --> 01:22:50,340
the abuse she took because she took so

1840
01:22:54,770 --> 01:22:52,289
much abuse for being this kind of New

1841
01:22:57,109 --> 01:22:54,780
Age person and she was like look you

1842
01:22:59,509 --> 01:22:57,119
know detractors whatever we're all just

1843
01:23:01,759 --> 01:22:59,519
trying to entertain we're all we're all

1844
01:23:02,929 --> 01:23:01,769
maybe just here to entertain each other

1845
01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:02,939
and you know I thought about that the

1846
01:23:06,739 --> 01:23:04,800
other day cuz someone was bringing up

1847
01:23:08,419 --> 01:23:06,749
like Michael Shermer the skeptic and

1848
01:23:10,129 --> 01:23:08,429
I've had him on the show a bunch of

1849
01:23:13,549 --> 01:23:10,139
times and I don't think he does very

1850
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:13,559
well at all but I like his as a frenemy

1851
01:23:19,939 --> 01:23:17,130
he's great he's entertaining or Neil

1852
01:23:21,729 --> 01:23:19,949
deGrasse Tyson who is kind of a nitwit

1853
01:23:24,049 --> 01:23:21,739
when it comes to consciousness and says

1854
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:24,059
absurd things kind of like with sam

1855
01:23:28,429 --> 01:23:26,130
harris kind of same thing but they are

1856
01:23:33,290 --> 01:23:28,439
entertaining and and i think we have to

1857
01:23:38,660 --> 01:23:33,300
genuinely i think appreciate how all are

1858
01:23:41,719 --> 01:23:38,670
our enemies slash frenemies are somehow

1859
01:23:48,469 --> 01:23:41,729
part of this process of entertainment

1860
01:23:52,580 --> 01:23:48,479
what do you think sore ni says is that

1861
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:52,590
we can find ways to see what is is good

1862
01:23:56,330 --> 01:23:54,449
and a value of others and appreciate

1863
01:23:58,009 --> 01:23:56,340
their particular qualities I would say

1864
01:24:01,819 --> 01:23:58,019
entertains not a word I would use

1865
01:24:03,890 --> 01:24:01,829
because it means passing the time and I

1866
01:24:05,390 --> 01:24:03,900
think we're definitely here to do more

1867
01:24:05,780 --> 01:24:05,400
than pass out to talk because it's

1868
01:24:07,850 --> 01:24:05,790
horrible

1869
01:24:10,100 --> 01:24:07,860
really though are we this gets back to

1870
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:10,110
it gets back to the three levels and

1871
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:12,210
it's like if they're convincing you that

1872
01:24:16,850 --> 01:24:14,130
you're here to do something other than

1873
01:24:18,380 --> 01:24:16,860
past time maybe that's part of the

1874
01:24:21,260 --> 01:24:18,390
deception as well because maybe all

1875
01:24:24,290 --> 01:24:21,270
that's levels again I mean I'm not

1876
01:24:26,570 --> 01:24:24,300
enlightened so and I mean any person I

1877
01:24:31,100 --> 01:24:26,580
know who seems like they are enlightened

1878
01:24:34,100 --> 01:24:31,110
he seems very dedicated to helping other

1879
01:24:37,430 --> 01:24:34,110
human beings I'm highly suspicious of

1880
01:24:42,890 --> 01:24:37,440
that I just am and I tell you a great

1881
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:42,900
story I love spiritual story is Amma

1882
01:24:50,870 --> 01:24:46,170
you know our mother hugging Saint she's

1883
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:50,880
quite popular so so I went and saw all

1884
01:24:57,440 --> 01:24:54,810
my in LA and I got a hug from mom didn't

1885
01:24:59,870 --> 01:24:57,450
do anything for me but I appreciate

1886
01:25:01,910 --> 01:24:59,880
where she's coming from and I appreciate

1887
01:25:03,650 --> 01:25:01,920
the story that I heard from my buddy

1888
01:25:09,410 --> 01:25:03,660
regards her from good at the gas pump

1889
01:25:14,110 --> 01:25:09,420
that a devotee came up to a man said you

1890
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:14,120
know you speak of this world as

1891
01:25:19,190 --> 01:25:16,530
non-existent and yet I see you out

1892
01:25:20,900 --> 01:25:19,200
working 18 hours a day digging the

1893
01:25:23,390 --> 01:25:20,910
trains in the home with the untouchables

1894
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:23,400
and hugging people - you're almost to

1895
01:25:31,790 --> 01:25:27,690
the point of exhaustion how what is it

1896
01:25:35,690 --> 01:25:31,800
about this world it she goes world what

1897
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:35,700
world and if we take that story at all

1898
01:25:40,700 --> 01:25:37,290
those spiritual stories as being

1899
01:25:44,480 --> 01:25:40,710
somewhat true it's someone who doesn't

1900
01:25:47,060 --> 01:25:44,490
even see their actions as doing in a

1901
01:25:50,090 --> 01:25:47,070
literal sense and I'm highly suspicious

1902
01:25:52,610 --> 01:25:50,100
of spiritual materialism as what I call

1903
01:25:54,950 --> 01:25:52,620
it the sage on the stage the I know

1904
01:25:56,810 --> 01:25:54,960
something special and let me just pass

1905
01:25:58,400 --> 01:25:56,820
it on to you but then you have to get

1906
01:26:01,120 --> 01:25:58,410
out there and buddy you got to do it

1907
01:26:06,050 --> 01:26:01,130
because Dooley knows what's important

1908
01:26:09,380 --> 01:26:06,060
sure I mean quite a big subject now it's

1909
01:26:10,970 --> 01:26:09,390
just bearing into and it's quite quite

1910
01:26:12,860 --> 01:26:10,980
far from what we've been covering so

1911
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:12,870
I'll bring it back to entertainment

1912
01:26:18,780 --> 01:26:16,050
because because it's key to this latest

1913
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:18,790
book about Hollywood and

1914
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:20,560
there's a convergence between

1915
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:22,330
entertainment certainly in the Hollywood

1916
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:25,330
sense and suspending disbelief that's

1917
01:26:30,030 --> 01:26:27,850
the first principle the prime directive

1918
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:30,040
of Hollywood right and you could say of

1919
01:26:34,140 --> 01:26:32,050
entertainment we have to suspend this

1920
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:34,150
belief so that we get pulled into the

1921
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:36,730
story and and believe that it's real

1922
01:26:45,270 --> 01:26:43,330
so my sense is was I mean entertainment

1923
01:26:47,070 --> 01:26:45,280
has its place and certainly I want to

1924
01:26:50,460 --> 01:26:47,080
enjoy my conversation with you otherwise

1925
01:26:53,940 --> 01:26:50,470
what's the point I have to wonder Jason

1926
01:26:55,950 --> 01:26:53,950
when I saw your mind go there for a

1927
01:26:59,690 --> 01:26:55,960
minute I wonder if you saw the same

1928
01:27:03,110 --> 01:26:59,700
connection that I did and that if if

1929
01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:03,120
entertainment in Hollywood is about

1930
01:27:12,930 --> 01:27:09,030
suspending disbelief and we are here to

1931
01:27:15,780 --> 01:27:12,940
inquiry to perpetuate doubt is a third

1932
01:27:19,530 --> 01:27:15,790
interesting through line between those

1933
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:19,540
two that maybe we have to explore in the

1934
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:21,370
disbelief that you talked about in your

1935
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:23,290
blog post which I have no way which

1936
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:26,170
sounds great that's what I've uh so I

1937
01:27:30,690 --> 01:27:28,570
would say that we're you and I here our

1938
01:27:33,330 --> 01:27:30,700
mission if you like is to unsuspended

1939
01:27:35,820 --> 01:27:33,340
belief so in that sense it's anti

1940
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:35,830
entertainment but we're trying to get

1941
01:27:39,630 --> 01:27:38,170
free of the spell of entertainment and

1942
01:27:41,970 --> 01:27:39,640
that it would be much better wouldn't it

1943
01:27:45,210 --> 01:27:41,980
for me to be able to be as honest with

1944
01:27:47,100 --> 01:27:45,220
you as I as I could be even if that

1945
01:27:49,020 --> 01:27:47,110
meant that you were no longer being

1946
01:27:51,450 --> 01:27:49,030
entertained you might get upset you

1947
01:27:53,580 --> 01:27:51,460
might get offended but the truth is much

1948
01:27:58,230 --> 01:27:53,590
more important than keeping each other

1949
01:28:01,530 --> 01:27:58,240
happy what yeah except we could we could

1950
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:01,540
you know suspend disbelief in suspending

1951
01:28:09,300 --> 01:28:04,810
belief aren't the same right so if I'm

1952
01:28:10,860 --> 01:28:09,310
trying to yes belief means believing

1953
01:28:12,900 --> 01:28:10,870
it's just a fancy way of saying

1954
01:28:15,030 --> 01:28:12,910
believing well it depends on what your

1955
01:28:16,590 --> 01:28:15,040
beliefs are so you take one leaf and I'm

1956
01:28:18,270 --> 01:28:16,600
going to try and get you to suspend that

1957
01:28:20,850 --> 01:28:18,280
a belief is it just you know it's it's

1958
01:28:24,270 --> 01:28:20,860
yeah it's a double negative when we say

1959
01:28:25,950 --> 01:28:24,280
suspend and dis I mean that's okay but

1960
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:25,960
you understand the meaning in Hollywood

1961
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:29,410
it means that you you inhibit the part

1962
01:28:32,470 --> 01:28:31,330
of your consciousness that's telling you

1963
01:28:34,780 --> 01:28:32,480
this is not real

1964
01:28:37,270 --> 01:28:34,790
is happening you inhibit that you

1965
01:28:39,790 --> 01:28:37,280
suspend your display so it used to come

1966
01:28:42,580 --> 01:28:39,800
to the spell and you feel like you're

1967
01:28:44,830 --> 01:28:42,590
actually having a real experience that

1968
01:28:47,140 --> 01:28:44,840
that's what we do all the time during

1969
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:47,150
our days when we interact with each

1970
01:28:54,190 --> 01:28:51,170
other we forget that we're not who we

1971
01:28:56,380 --> 01:28:54,200
think we are and what we're seeing and

1972
01:28:58,840 --> 01:28:56,390
perceiving isn't really what's happening

1973
01:29:02,020 --> 01:28:58,850
even if we know you know in different

1974
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:02,030
ways we know that we are diz is quite

1975
01:29:07,860 --> 01:29:03,920
different than our minds are telling you

1976
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:07,870
it is part of what our minds do it is

1977
01:29:14,260 --> 01:29:11,840
they persuade us these Wizards of Wizard

1978
01:29:16,690 --> 01:29:14,270
of Oz's yeah you know there's this

1979
01:29:17,950 --> 01:29:16,700
really fantastic podcast that I like

1980
01:29:21,850 --> 01:29:17,960
it's been around forever it's called

1981
01:29:25,090 --> 01:29:21,860
martini shot with Rob long who was a is

1982
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:25,100
a very highly highly regarded writer in

1983
01:29:31,330 --> 01:29:28,370
Hollywood and used to write for oh what

1984
01:29:33,310 --> 01:29:31,340
was that show cheers you know way back

1985
01:29:34,990 --> 01:29:33,320
in the day and he's done many other

1986
01:29:38,010 --> 01:29:35,000
projects as well but he always has this

1987
01:29:42,010 --> 01:29:38,020
kind of insider kind of Hollywood

1988
01:29:44,020 --> 01:29:42,020
writers thing but you know to drive home

1989
01:29:47,440 --> 01:29:44,030
your point about suspending disbelief I

1990
01:29:49,260 --> 01:29:47,450
love this story that he tells about this

1991
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:49,270
one scene that they were shooting and

1992
01:29:56,380 --> 01:29:52,490
they shot it and they liked it and then

1993
01:29:59,350 --> 01:29:56,390
somebody pointed out that the actor who

1994
01:30:02,020 --> 01:29:59,360
you know this is sitcom TV sitcom kind

1995
01:30:05,260 --> 01:30:02,030
of stuff not high cinema or anything but

1996
01:30:08,260 --> 01:30:05,270
he never started the car and yet drove

1997
01:30:10,300 --> 01:30:08,270
off in it you know what I mean right and

1998
01:30:12,820 --> 01:30:10,310
this guy brought it up said hey you know

1999
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:12,830
we got to reshoot that because you know

2000
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:15,050
people are gonna pick up on that and he

2001
01:30:22,300 --> 01:30:19,250
said if they pick up on that we've

2002
01:30:24,580 --> 01:30:22,310
already lost already and it speaks to

2003
01:30:27,700 --> 01:30:24,590
the suspending disbelief if we haven't

2004
01:30:29,380 --> 01:30:27,710
gotten them along to go along with the

2005
01:30:32,530 --> 01:30:29,390
story at this point

2006
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:32,540
then forget it they're not there so I

2007
01:30:38,620 --> 01:30:36,170
guess I wonder out loud and this has

2008
01:30:43,060 --> 01:30:38,630
kind of a very minor point but it's

2009
01:30:46,060 --> 01:30:43,070
maybe interesting if this entertainment

2010
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:46,070
that we're doing for and to

2011
01:30:52,390 --> 01:30:49,010
each other isn't playing with these

2012
01:30:54,850 --> 01:30:52,400
different ideas of belief and trying to

2013
01:30:56,890 --> 01:30:54,860
tune up my belief with yours and what do

2014
01:30:59,950 --> 01:30:56,900
you want to call it disbelief or belief

2015
01:31:03,010 --> 01:30:59,960
it's kind of two two sides of the same

2016
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:03,020
coin I think it probably has to what's

2017
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:06,290
primary I think about if our if our

2018
01:31:13,180 --> 01:31:11,210
primary drive or interest is getting to

2019
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:13,190
the truth and really being in as real as

2020
01:31:17,140 --> 01:31:15,440
we can with each other and I write the

2021
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:17,150
entertainment sing is secondary then all

2022
01:31:21,669 --> 01:31:19,250
is good at all as well but if think if

2023
01:31:25,890 --> 01:31:21,679
we put the entertainment in primary and

2024
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:25,900
then we subject or submit the truth

2025
01:31:32,050 --> 01:31:29,570
impetus to that and say well if at any

2026
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:32,060
point my search for the truth ceases to

2027
01:31:37,450 --> 01:31:35,090
be entertaining I'll stop it right then

2028
01:31:41,109 --> 01:31:37,460
then we get into the problems with

2029
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:41,119
levander if I'd been if I had put

2030
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:43,010
entertainment before truth I would have

2031
01:31:46,839 --> 01:31:44,690
gone it would have gone a very different

2032
01:31:49,089 --> 01:31:46,849
way because it wasn't entertaining that

2033
01:31:51,250 --> 01:31:49,099
was not an entertaining exchange it was

2034
01:31:54,069 --> 01:31:51,260
for others I'm finding out now in the

2035
01:31:57,609 --> 01:31:54,079
end but even at the time it made people

2036
01:31:59,410 --> 01:31:57,619
uncomfortable so so I guess I said that

2037
01:32:01,510 --> 01:31:59,420
was motivated by entertainment it was

2038
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:01,520
motivated by something else and that it

2039
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:03,530
could people online neurotic as I say

2040
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:05,210
like the drive for the truth can be

2041
01:32:10,270 --> 01:32:07,730
unhealthy can be it can be obsessive

2042
01:32:12,910 --> 01:32:10,280
your other point which is extremely well

2043
01:32:14,950 --> 01:32:12,920
taken and it's these subtle shifts that

2044
01:32:17,020 --> 01:32:14,960
we make in terms of how we're

2045
01:32:20,109 --> 01:32:17,030
prioritizing all these different things

2046
01:32:23,229 --> 01:32:20,119
and keeping the space in keeping the

2047
01:32:26,439 --> 01:32:23,239
plates spinning is is really what it's

2048
01:32:27,939 --> 01:32:26,449
all about so I I give up on that one

2049
01:32:32,350 --> 01:32:27,949
you've wrestled me to the ground and

2050
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:32,360
okay I agree with you one final point I

2051
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:35,810
might try and fold back into this

2052
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:38,570
because I really tried to I jumped in

2053
01:32:42,430 --> 01:32:40,130
there and kind of really put those

2054
01:32:46,660 --> 01:32:42,440
faults on when you talked about religion

2055
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:46,670
and I guess I want to deconstruct that a

2056
01:32:50,500 --> 01:32:48,170
little bit so we're not just talking in

2057
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:50,510
shorthand but like one of the really

2058
01:32:55,629 --> 01:32:53,329
influential episodes or explorations I

2059
01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:55,639
did on skeptic Oh was the series of

2060
01:33:02,020 --> 01:32:58,370
videos I did with Joseph at well

2061
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:02,030
who is what this book Caesars Messiah

2062
01:33:07,450 --> 01:33:04,970
that the premise of the book is that

2063
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:07,460
there is the bejeezus myth the

2064
01:33:11,770 --> 01:33:09,530
historical Jesus doesn't really exist

2065
01:33:15,970 --> 01:33:11,780
and should be under his best understood

2066
01:33:19,330 --> 01:33:15,980
as a social control mechanism of the

2067
01:33:22,480 --> 01:33:19,340
Roman Empire and I don't agree with the

2068
01:33:24,850 --> 01:33:22,490
100 percent go there kind of thing that

2069
01:33:28,480 --> 01:33:24,860
Joe Atwell does but I think there's some

2070
01:33:31,060 --> 01:33:28,490
fundamental provable truths to what he's

2071
01:33:32,940 --> 01:33:31,070
about and historically if anyone wants

2072
01:33:37,990 --> 01:33:32,950
to investigate I always point people to

2073
01:33:42,250 --> 01:33:38,000
Josephus because Josephus is the what

2074
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:42,260
we're told is Josephus is this Roman /

2075
01:33:47,290 --> 01:33:45,290
Jewish historian through which we know

2076
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:47,300
just about everything historically that

2077
01:33:53,550 --> 01:33:50,930
we know about that time at will makes an

2078
01:33:56,290 --> 01:33:53,560
extremely strong case for the fact that

2079
01:34:00,610 --> 01:33:56,300
Josephus is a fictional character

2080
01:34:04,300 --> 01:34:00,620
he's not real he's an invention of the

2081
01:34:07,690 --> 01:34:04,310
Roman Empire to control the narrative

2082
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:07,700
and the evidence I think is really once

2083
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:10,850
you can make that step it becomes really

2084
01:34:16,780 --> 01:34:13,610
kind of overwhelming evidence from

2085
01:34:18,490 --> 01:34:16,790
everything about Josephus is story but

2086
01:34:21,340 --> 01:34:18,500
the implications that in terms of the

2087
01:34:24,850 --> 01:34:21,350
Bible are much more significant because

2088
01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:24,860
the writings of Josephus which are

2089
01:34:29,170 --> 01:34:27,530
clearly pro Roman because the Romans

2090
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:29,180
employed this guy to write the history

2091
01:34:40,900 --> 01:34:36,890
are are clearly constructed in in the in

2092
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:40,910
the Gospels so the the Gospels the Bible

2093
01:34:47,770 --> 01:34:44,210
is dependent on Josephus Josephus is

2094
01:34:51,210 --> 01:34:47,780
written into the Bible the implications

2095
01:34:54,610 --> 01:34:51,220
of this are that it is undeniable that

2096
01:34:57,600 --> 01:34:54,620
Christianity as we understand it was

2097
01:35:00,460 --> 01:34:57,610
from the beginning to some extent a

2098
01:35:03,010 --> 01:35:00,470
control mechanism a social engineering

2099
01:35:05,530 --> 01:35:03,020
mechanism just like it is today and that

2100
01:35:07,630 --> 01:35:05,540
that's always been at play and to

2101
01:35:09,790 --> 01:35:07,640
broaden it to this larger conversation

2102
01:35:11,410 --> 01:35:09,800
we're having but I think people have a

2103
01:35:13,540 --> 01:35:11,420
problem with

2104
01:35:15,250 --> 01:35:13,550
does it mean that Christ consciousness

2105
01:35:16,930 --> 01:35:15,260
isn't real

2106
01:35:20,380 --> 01:35:16,940
that doesn't mean that people can't

2107
01:35:23,440 --> 01:35:20,390
experience some kind of spiritual truth

2108
01:35:25,900 --> 01:35:23,450
both through that book through the

2109
01:35:28,480 --> 01:35:25,910
figures in that book in the same way

2110
01:35:32,380 --> 01:35:28,490
that they can experience some negative

2111
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:32,390
reality to Satan even though our our

2112
01:35:36,790 --> 01:35:34,730
friend Richard smoly historian points

2113
01:35:38,650 --> 01:35:36,800
out that Satan it slips through our

2114
01:35:41,440 --> 01:35:38,660
fingers historically as well

2115
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:41,450
so until we can get to that deeper

2116
01:35:47,590 --> 01:35:44,570
reality about exploring how these how

2117
01:35:49,570 --> 01:35:47,600
these can both be true then I don't

2118
01:35:53,530 --> 01:35:49,580
think we can get there but I certainly

2119
01:35:55,090 --> 01:35:53,540
don't think we need to infuse religion

2120
01:36:00,250 --> 01:35:55,100
back into this discussion

2121
01:36:02,770 --> 01:36:00,260
as if it's somewhat as if it's real in

2122
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:02,780
some sense because it's just it's just

2123
01:36:11,170 --> 01:36:06,770
not in that way real to talk about it

2124
01:36:13,630 --> 01:36:11,180
you know because we are talking about

2125
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:13,640
evil and so I'd say the context for you

2126
01:36:20,530 --> 01:36:17,330
is largely religious one and the point I

2127
01:36:22,630 --> 01:36:20,540
made about it's not what if it's not

2128
01:36:24,580 --> 01:36:22,640
what if it's because I think I thought

2129
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:24,590
we were saying it's not a religious one

2130
01:36:29,290 --> 01:36:27,530
I thought we were saying you know well I

2131
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:29,300
think I mean this is a pointless your

2132
01:36:33,730 --> 01:36:31,970
and peers amaze I'm not a very fan of

2133
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:33,740
Jordan Pearson but I think it was one of

2134
01:36:37,990 --> 01:36:35,930
his better points is that we are

2135
01:36:41,110 --> 01:36:38,000
Christian whether we like it or not our

2136
01:36:43,930 --> 01:36:41,120
culture is so firmly embedded in

2137
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:43,940
Christian ethos that even the staunchest

2138
01:36:48,310 --> 01:36:46,010
atheists don't realize that they're

2139
01:36:50,350 --> 01:36:48,320
espousing Christian values yeah but

2140
01:36:52,630 --> 01:36:50,360
that's cripplingly ethnocentric you know

2141
01:36:56,110 --> 01:36:52,640
I just posted on The Skeptical forum

2142
01:36:57,540 --> 01:36:56,120
this is just like recent news 27 people

2143
01:37:00,400 --> 01:36:57,550
dead in New Guinea

2144
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:00,410
because they were suspected of being

2145
01:37:05,950 --> 01:37:04,130
witches so part of the culture had this

2146
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:05,960
spiritual connection with this other

2147
01:37:08,440 --> 01:37:07,730
dimension and decided that these people

2148
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:08,450
were witches

2149
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:10,850
and that they needed to die and they

2150
01:37:15,370 --> 01:37:13,010
killed them and they ate their hearts

2151
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:15,380
and cook their penis or something crazy

2152
01:37:19,540 --> 01:37:17,570
like that or maybe it's not crazy maybe

2153
01:37:21,220 --> 01:37:19,550
that is what happened in the extended

2154
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:21,230
realm maybe there's a demon in that

2155
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:22,970
extended realm that's manipulating them

2156
01:37:26,310 --> 01:37:23,530
in the same

2157
01:37:27,930 --> 01:37:26,320
that Montezuma felt like he had to take

2158
01:37:29,610 --> 01:37:27,940
these hearts out of people and do this

2159
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:29,620
but the New Guinea it's not good amount

2160
01:37:33,780 --> 01:37:30,610
of zoom because that's like ancient

2161
01:37:37,140 --> 01:37:33,790
history this is today in New Guinea so

2162
01:37:38,700 --> 01:37:37,150
no I I don't accept this idea that we're

2163
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:38,710
Christian I think that is from

2164
01:37:41,730 --> 01:37:41,050
Christians I can't just say Hollywood

2165
01:37:44,670 --> 01:37:41,740
sucks

2166
01:37:47,250 --> 01:37:44,680
um I could start watching another

2167
01:37:49,530 --> 01:37:47,260
product but I couldn't I can't just get

2168
01:37:51,270 --> 01:37:49,540
Hollywood out my system because I decide

2169
01:37:53,190 --> 01:37:51,280
that I don't like Hollywood because I

2170
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:53,200
grew up on it so even if we're not

2171
01:37:57,480 --> 01:37:55,210
raised Christian were raised in a

2172
01:37:59,880 --> 01:37:57,490
Christian culture so those values of

2173
01:38:01,920 --> 01:37:59,890
they're hardwired into our identity I

2174
01:38:04,430 --> 01:38:01,930
don't buy that to the extent that I mean

2175
01:38:07,860 --> 01:38:04,440
this is kind of like our discussion on

2176
01:38:10,290 --> 01:38:07,870
entertainment which you know you you win

2177
01:38:12,180 --> 01:38:10,300
that one because it's all the where we

2178
01:38:14,370 --> 01:38:12,190
put our point of emphasis and I'd say

2179
01:38:16,020 --> 01:38:14,380
the same thing like with with Hollywood

2180
01:38:19,440 --> 01:38:16,030
and I'm gonna know more about is that

2181
01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:19,450
book out currently no I'm just rewriting

2182
01:38:26,040 --> 01:38:22,090
it now last minute because I've fund it

2183
01:38:28,500 --> 01:38:26,050
I did a crowd funder and I raised raised

2184
01:38:30,090 --> 01:38:28,510
enough to publish it I'm just right he's

2185
01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:30,100
trying to raise another thousand to get

2186
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:32,530
a hardback edition before August 8th and

2187
01:38:39,060 --> 01:38:36,970
then I've got to send it to the printers

2188
01:38:41,370 --> 01:38:39,070
in all this probably out in October

2189
01:38:44,850 --> 01:38:41,380
something like nice nice okay well recap

2190
01:38:48,510 --> 01:38:44,860
that at the end but I guess my point was

2191
01:38:52,370 --> 01:38:48,520
gonna be I think you can disengage from

2192
01:38:56,010 --> 01:38:52,380
Hollywood to to a significant degree

2193
01:38:58,770 --> 01:38:56,020
just by understanding what you're saying

2194
01:39:00,960 --> 01:38:58,780
just by I mean the realization if you

2195
01:39:02,820 --> 01:39:00,970
trace back through your history anyone's

2196
01:39:05,010 --> 01:39:02,830
history when you become aware of this

2197
01:39:07,350 --> 01:39:05,020
stuff you can never look at it the same

2198
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:07,360
way so I would suspect that already you

2199
01:39:12,900 --> 01:39:09,970
cannot look at Hollywood movies the way

2200
01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:12,910
that you know any percent so the same is

2201
01:39:18,030 --> 01:39:15,490
true with Christianity you know so well

2202
01:39:21,630 --> 01:39:18,040
he watched South Park destroy the

2203
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:21,640
Catholic Church you can't go into the

2204
01:39:26,610 --> 01:39:24,730
Catholic Church the same way even if

2205
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:26,620
you're quote-unquote a devout Catholic

2206
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:29,290
it's it's never going to be the same and

2207
01:39:33,540 --> 01:39:30,730
it shouldn't ever be the same

2208
01:39:38,130 --> 01:39:33,550
this is all a conscious level so what

2209
01:39:42,570 --> 01:39:38,140
I'm referring to is the the construction

2210
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:42,580
which is constructed during the same

2211
01:39:46,650 --> 01:39:44,530
time that we developed language so we

2212
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:46,660
develop a sense of who we are existing

2213
01:39:52,229 --> 01:39:48,850
as an actual individual self this

2214
01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:52,239
internalized illusory sense that we

2215
01:39:59,100 --> 01:39:56,080
exist you know as a person that I'm

2216
01:40:01,910 --> 01:39:59,110
talking about that thing so for that to

2217
01:40:04,830 --> 01:40:01,920
come undone I mean for us to be entirely

2218
01:40:06,740 --> 01:40:04,840
liberated now ironically getting into

2219
01:40:08,729 --> 01:40:06,750
you know the the rationale for

2220
01:40:11,690 --> 01:40:08,739
transgression and any number of

2221
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:11,700
pathologies but to be fully liberated

2222
01:40:19,380 --> 01:40:14,890
from that constructed identity trauma

2223
01:40:23,550 --> 01:40:19,390
generated self and thereby by extension

2224
01:40:25,709 --> 01:40:23,560
the culture that co-created it we would

2225
01:40:27,930 --> 01:40:25,719
have to go all the way back or we do

2226
01:40:30,270 --> 01:40:27,940
have to go all the way back to that

2227
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:30,280
original formation you know undo the

2228
01:40:36,150 --> 01:40:32,410
original formation so that that's what

2229
01:40:37,860 --> 01:40:36,160
I'm referring to but I wonder if that is

2230
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:37,870
is true

2231
01:40:42,570 --> 01:40:40,210
inconsistent with what we both I think

2232
01:40:45,390 --> 01:40:42,580
really identified with in terms of a

2233
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:45,400
personal spirituality and that may be

2234
01:40:51,540 --> 01:40:49,210
the undoing process isn't what we've

2235
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:51,550
been told it is because I think a lot of

2236
01:41:00,229 --> 01:40:53,770
times we're told that it is this deep

2237
01:41:05,190 --> 01:41:02,610
we don't know how it could just happen

2238
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:05,200
overnight it could happen the way that I

2239
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:07,810
think you were describing which is to

2240
01:41:15,090 --> 01:41:12,610
just let it be let it let the light was

2241
01:41:16,650 --> 01:41:15,100
letting it be because billions of people

2242
01:41:18,510 --> 01:41:16,660
are just letting it be and they just

2243
01:41:19,709 --> 01:41:18,520
carry on watching that fix it but it's

2244
01:41:23,250 --> 01:41:19,719
with the weirdness like you were talking

2245
01:41:25,979 --> 01:41:23,260
about before that does involve a

2246
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:25,989
willingness to engage in exploring

2247
01:41:31,170 --> 01:41:28,930
examine to look and to not look away and

2248
01:41:33,780 --> 01:41:31,180
to keep looking and keep going moving

2249
01:41:37,140 --> 01:41:33,790
once awareness deeper and deeper into

2250
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:37,150
those areas that the light hasn't shown

2251
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:41,770
on so and that that does involve being

2252
01:41:46,070 --> 01:41:43,810
liminal and as you said being in his day

2253
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:46,080
of doubt and not and not adding new

2254
01:41:51,149 --> 01:41:49,570
convictions to the old ones you see what

2255
01:41:53,580 --> 01:41:51,159
I mean not replacing

2256
01:41:58,649 --> 01:41:53,590
all convictions with new ones it it

2257
01:42:00,359 --> 01:41:58,659
requires really not knowing and does

2258
01:42:02,189 --> 01:42:00,369
that mean you talk about Christianity I

2259
01:42:06,779 --> 01:42:02,199
took about Hollywood but actually the

2260
01:42:09,750 --> 01:42:06,789
underpinnings of our identity are even

2261
01:42:12,989 --> 01:42:09,760
deeper than those things right it's that

2262
01:42:14,969 --> 01:42:12,999
it's easy enough to reanalyze data and

2263
01:42:16,979 --> 01:42:14,979
reach different conclusions and say okay

2264
01:42:18,779 --> 01:42:16,989
christianity is also out don't have to

2265
01:42:20,699 --> 01:42:18,789
worry about that okay Crowley was a

2266
01:42:22,350 --> 01:42:20,709
child abuser don't have to believe in

2267
01:42:24,929 --> 01:42:22,360
any of that okay Holly was run by

2268
01:42:25,620 --> 01:42:24,939
pedophiles don't know all right it's um

2269
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:25,630
it's hard

2270
01:42:30,179 --> 01:42:27,610
that is hard most people can't do that

2271
01:42:33,750 --> 01:42:30,189
but relatively it's easy enough to

2272
01:42:38,429 --> 01:42:33,760
perform those you know procedures to

2273
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:38,439
follow those procedures compared to God

2274
01:42:41,549 --> 01:42:40,090
I don't know how to describe the other

2275
01:42:43,949 --> 01:42:41,559
thing because I haven't fully done it

2276
01:42:45,959 --> 01:42:43,959
but its effect like our identity is

2277
01:42:48,750 --> 01:42:45,969
hardwired into our nervous system

2278
01:42:51,659 --> 01:42:48,760
through this traumatic impact of both

2279
01:42:54,449 --> 01:42:51,669
locally and globally you know the

2280
01:42:56,669 --> 01:42:54,459
culture as narrow to this fine laser

2281
01:42:58,859 --> 01:42:56,679
point of our parenting and any other

2282
01:43:02,089 --> 01:42:58,869
abuses that happen and that has

2283
01:43:05,189 --> 01:43:02,099
imprinted us biologically as this

2284
01:43:08,969 --> 01:43:05,199
overwhelming effect out of which is kind

2285
01:43:10,890 --> 01:43:08,979
of spewed this robotic constructed

2286
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:10,900
identity as a defense against that

2287
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:15,130
effect and so really to let go of that

2288
01:43:19,830 --> 01:43:17,650
defensive identity is to re-experience

2289
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:19,840
all the overwhelming anguish of that

2290
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:22,449
original effect with the original wound

2291
01:43:31,890 --> 01:43:26,610
and I'm not saying that can be done or

2292
01:43:34,830 --> 01:43:31,900
because I don't know I just just that

2293
01:43:36,870 --> 01:43:34,840
kind of undoing is a much deeper undoing

2294
01:43:38,370 --> 01:43:36,880
or that kind of letting go I should say

2295
01:43:40,859 --> 01:43:38,380
is a much deeper letting go and letting

2296
01:43:43,290 --> 01:43:40,869
go of a religious belief or an

2297
01:43:47,790 --> 01:43:43,300
affiliation without that you know it's

2298
01:43:49,770 --> 01:43:47,800
it's it's LT it's in the cells again I

2299
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:49,780
always say the same thing I'm totally

2300
01:43:54,870 --> 01:43:52,530
with you it's deep right up to the end

2301
01:43:56,489 --> 01:43:54,880
I disagree let me throw a couple things

2302
01:44:00,029 --> 01:43:56,499
on the table and then we'll wrap this up

2303
01:44:02,459 --> 01:44:00,039
a couple of spiritual teachers add a

2304
01:44:03,630 --> 01:44:02,469
couple of guideposts here that are

2305
01:44:06,900 --> 01:44:03,640
meaningful to me

2306
01:44:12,180 --> 01:44:06,910
the first is with regard to all the deep

2307
01:44:15,710 --> 01:44:12,190
cell level cleansing I start with don't

2308
01:44:21,510 --> 01:44:18,990
complaining about the weather is it's

2309
01:44:24,060 --> 01:44:21,520
right to the heart of it right it's me

2310
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:24,070
I hate when it rains on the weekend oh

2311
01:44:31,050 --> 01:44:27,610
it's a sunny day it's too cold too hot I

2312
01:44:33,660 --> 01:44:31,060
am somehow this little me that is

2313
01:44:35,670 --> 01:44:33,670
defined by my likes and dislikes and I

2314
01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:35,680
can get into that and analyze that too

2315
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:38,170
you know all this great little extent

2316
01:44:41,100 --> 01:44:39,730
but how about just don't complain about

2317
01:44:43,020 --> 01:44:41,110
the weather that's something I try and

2318
01:44:45,060 --> 01:44:43,030
do it seems to work it seems to be part

2319
01:44:47,850 --> 01:44:45,070
of my spiritual path and number two I

2320
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:47,860
learned a long time ago because I really

2321
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:49,330
appreciate that yoga the physical

2322
01:44:53,070 --> 01:44:50,170
practice of it

2323
01:44:55,650 --> 01:44:53,080
my very first teacher he told me this it

2324
01:44:58,740 --> 01:44:55,660
looked like he was brilliant at doing

2325
01:45:01,350 --> 01:44:58,750
these really is a real like a Dallas

2326
01:45:03,570 --> 01:45:01,360
Cowboy football player kind of yogi yeah

2327
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:03,580
I could really do these things he said

2328
01:45:09,450 --> 01:45:07,330
don't anticipate the pose and when we

2329
01:45:11,430 --> 01:45:09,460
when you do yoga if you do any kind of

2330
01:45:13,350 --> 01:45:11,440
strenuous physical activity your mind

2331
01:45:15,570 --> 01:45:13,360
immediately goes to when will this be

2332
01:45:19,400 --> 01:45:15,580
over what's next what I'm gonna have for

2333
01:45:23,610 --> 01:45:19,410
lunch and not anticipating the pose

2334
01:45:26,700 --> 01:45:23,620
doesn't require any cell level rehashing

2335
01:45:30,150 --> 01:45:26,710
of your Christian programming but might

2336
01:45:32,940 --> 01:45:30,160
as we were talking about had the effect

2337
01:45:37,530 --> 01:45:32,950
of moving you further along the

2338
01:45:42,930 --> 01:45:37,540
spiritual path than doing that it's been

2339
01:45:44,910 --> 01:45:42,940
my experience may qualify that I wasn't

2340
01:45:48,270 --> 01:45:44,920
suggesting that was a doing about the

2341
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:48,280
cells just something in us that prevents

2342
01:45:54,060 --> 01:45:50,410
us from relaxing and letting our life

2343
01:45:56,190 --> 01:45:54,070
force flow into life and to be fully

2344
01:45:59,820 --> 01:45:56,200
open to life and fully engaged with

2345
01:46:02,850 --> 01:45:59,830
living and that's that's what needs to

2346
01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:02,860
happen is a total relax and that no

2347
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:05,050
changing ideology is going to allow for

2348
01:46:12,270 --> 01:46:07,570
that relaxation I'm not saying we have

2349
01:46:16,410 --> 01:46:12,280
to purge every cell just for some reason

2350
01:46:17,490 --> 01:46:16,420
and I think it is trauma based a nervous

2351
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:17,500
system isn't

2352
01:46:23,250 --> 01:46:20,730
Susi's tensed up it is locked up and

2353
01:46:27,420 --> 01:46:23,260
until that happen till that release

2354
01:46:30,240 --> 01:46:27,430
happens we can't make up my mind about

2355
01:46:33,690 --> 01:46:30,250
anything really and maybe we won't need

2356
01:46:35,610 --> 01:46:33,700
to once that happens and I mean my

2357
01:46:37,260 --> 01:46:35,620
feeling about religion and I didn't want

2358
01:46:38,940 --> 01:46:37,270
to bring back to that specifically

2359
01:46:41,580 --> 01:46:38,950
Christianity I would suggest reading

2360
01:46:43,140 --> 01:46:41,590
Girard for a counterpoint Rene Girard

2361
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:43,150
because this is a very deep

2362
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:45,970
understanding of Christianity that goes

2363
01:46:52,700 --> 01:46:50,410
beyond psy open and but it doesn't have

2364
01:46:55,170 --> 01:46:52,710
to argue that it's you know received

2365
01:46:58,890 --> 01:46:55,180
revelation either but just as a deep

2366
01:47:01,080 --> 01:46:58,900
application on that but yeah my

2367
01:47:04,830 --> 01:47:01,090
understanding about religious doctrine

2368
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:04,840
is is it's it's another tool and that it

2369
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:08,650
can get us to a place of relaxing and

2370
01:47:13,470 --> 01:47:10,690
untrusting and of surrendering to life

2371
01:47:15,660 --> 01:47:13,480
if it's rightly used in a way of the

2372
01:47:17,550 --> 01:47:15,670
ocultism probably can't but that maybe

2373
01:47:23,820 --> 01:47:17,560
that's me maybe I'm just too hard lying

2374
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:23,830
our cultism and and so I don't have a

2375
01:47:27,450 --> 01:47:25,690
strong position on Christianity I'm but

2376
01:47:29,310 --> 01:47:27,460
that's where I really get to be liminal

2377
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:29,320
because quite a lot of my listeners are

2378
01:47:33,540 --> 01:47:31,930
Christian and sometimes annoyingly so

2379
01:47:35,580 --> 01:47:33,550
I'm you know I've got was a Christian

2380
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:35,590
high down I don't I don't let comment at

2381
01:47:39,060 --> 01:47:37,690
my site because he's so virulent but

2382
01:47:41,610 --> 01:47:39,070
there are other Christians who aren't

2383
01:47:43,590 --> 01:47:41,620
that way and I can see that it seems to

2384
01:47:50,250 --> 01:47:43,600
work for them and I can I think I can

2385
01:47:53,100 --> 01:47:50,260
see why so I think I just well for me

2386
01:47:56,070 --> 01:47:53,110
it's it's that that's an area where I'm

2387
01:47:58,290 --> 01:47:56,080
very aware of of the difficulty but the

2388
01:48:00,630 --> 01:47:58,300
reward of staying liminal I can talk

2389
01:48:02,910 --> 01:48:00,640
with you or another skeptic about it and

2390
01:48:05,940 --> 01:48:02,920
be open I can also talk was it was a

2391
01:48:07,890 --> 01:48:05,950
pretty real unchristian and and be open

2392
01:48:10,860 --> 01:48:07,900
to that perspective that's very very

2393
01:48:14,610 --> 01:48:10,870
hard actually to be able to be that to

2394
01:48:17,190 --> 01:48:14,620
spread that it's between two holes to

2395
01:48:19,230 --> 01:48:17,200
actually extend one's awareness to both

2396
01:48:21,210 --> 01:48:19,240
extremes actually it's harder for me to

2397
01:48:23,850 --> 01:48:21,220
relate to you what you're saying about

2398
01:48:25,650 --> 01:48:23,860
your app will have to say I'm closer to

2399
01:48:27,810 --> 01:48:25,660
the dogmatic Christian but I really

2400
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:27,820
can't stand up at it Christians we've

2401
01:48:30,229 --> 01:48:29,440
been at this for two hours so I hate to

2402
01:48:32,779 --> 01:48:30,239
open up a can

2403
01:48:35,810 --> 01:48:32,789
that would take us back there but I

2404
01:48:37,549 --> 01:48:35,820
cannot resist because I think this does

2405
01:48:41,450 --> 01:48:37,559
wind us all the way back at the

2406
01:48:46,100 --> 01:48:41,460
beginning like if you don't like Joe at

2407
01:48:47,930 --> 01:48:46,110
well in Christianity as a worker I do

2408
01:48:50,930 --> 01:48:47,940
like it if you don't like Joe's idea

2409
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:50,940
about Christianity as a weapon I sigh up

2410
01:48:58,370 --> 01:48:55,760
then great just present counter-evidence

2411
01:49:00,439 --> 01:48:58,380
what I don't like and I doubt any

2412
01:49:03,169 --> 01:49:00,449
evidence would change my view on is that

2413
01:49:05,209 --> 01:49:03,179
that would anyway prove that there

2414
01:49:09,979 --> 01:49:05,219
wasn't a reality because every weapon I

2415
01:49:12,739 --> 01:49:09,989
sell I've seen used real stuff

2416
01:49:15,379 --> 01:49:12,749
it relies on real principles real

2417
01:49:17,629 --> 01:49:15,389
figures real historical advance

2418
01:49:20,450 --> 01:49:17,639
Jason this is like the oldest thing in

2419
01:49:22,729 --> 01:49:20,460
the book it's like at that point it

2420
01:49:24,950 --> 01:49:22,739
doesn't it doesn't matter because the

2421
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:24,960
narrative the story is completely

2422
01:49:31,790 --> 01:49:27,690
changed completely undermined it's like

2423
01:49:34,189 --> 01:49:31,800
the reality of satanic ritual abuse if

2424
01:49:36,859 --> 01:49:34,199
there's no reality to it then there's no

2425
01:49:39,799 --> 01:49:36,869
discussion if it is real then we need

2426
01:49:41,540 --> 01:49:39,809
then the entire discussion changes so

2427
01:49:44,989 --> 01:49:41,550
that's the same thing with Christianity

2428
01:49:48,049 --> 01:49:44,999
if it if its origins do have connections

2429
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:48,059
to a social engineering control

2430
01:49:56,600 --> 01:49:52,530
mechanism of the Romans then everything

2431
01:49:59,180 --> 01:49:56,610
every fundamental tenant of that

2432
01:50:01,339 --> 01:49:59,190
religion has to be looked at in a

2433
01:50:03,799 --> 01:50:01,349
different way so why would you even

2434
01:50:06,649 --> 01:50:03,809
allow for Christ consciousness if you're

2435
01:50:09,500 --> 01:50:06,659
not gonna rely for Christ well two

2436
01:50:12,770 --> 01:50:09,510
things number one I'm a kind of follow

2437
01:50:14,979 --> 01:50:12,780
the data guy so when I look at I start

2438
01:50:17,930 --> 01:50:14,989
with consciousness and I say gee

2439
01:50:19,759 --> 01:50:17,940
consciousness seems to be real despite

2440
01:50:21,770 --> 01:50:19,769
what Neil deGrasse Tyson who's never

2441
01:50:26,029 --> 01:50:21,780
studied consciousness says that it's an

2442
01:50:28,729 --> 01:50:26,039
illusion it's not in every and we have

2443
01:50:31,069 --> 01:50:28,739
that scientifically so next if that is

2444
01:50:34,310 --> 01:50:31,079
true then we can start taking seriously

2445
01:50:36,859 --> 01:50:34,320
the experiences that people have and

2446
01:50:37,819 --> 01:50:36,869
start looking at those and when we do we

2447
01:50:40,910 --> 01:50:37,829
have a lot of people that are

2448
01:50:43,129 --> 01:50:40,920
experiencing Christ I just interviewed

2449
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:43,139
the latest episode up on skeptic oh is a

2450
01:50:46,319 --> 01:50:44,050
guy named David

2451
01:50:47,850 --> 01:50:46,329
filled who had in my credit if you're

2452
01:50:50,879 --> 01:50:47,860
rejecting the whole Christian out of

2453
01:50:52,669 --> 01:50:50,889
this why name it Christ at all for the

2454
01:50:57,450 --> 01:50:52,679
same reason that when we talk about

2455
01:50:59,370 --> 01:50:57,460
Satan and satanic ritual abuse and you

2456
01:51:01,709 --> 01:50:59,380
know and I haven't interview up there

2457
01:51:05,750 --> 01:51:01,719
with Annika Lucas who at six years old

2458
01:51:08,490 --> 01:51:05,760
in Belgium was sold by her mother to a

2459
01:51:10,589 --> 01:51:08,500
satanic ritual abuse cult and almost

2460
01:51:15,149 --> 01:51:10,599
died was on the chopping block to die

2461
01:51:17,970 --> 01:51:15,159
you know so so they they are connecting

2462
01:51:20,430 --> 01:51:17,980
with this is their this is their

2463
01:51:24,270 --> 01:51:20,440
experience they are connecting with a

2464
01:51:27,149 --> 01:51:24,280
being a spirit being in the extended

2465
01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:27,159
realm that they identify as Satan so I

2466
01:51:33,270 --> 01:51:31,210
have to reconcile that with you know the

2467
01:51:35,729 --> 01:51:33,280
fact that Satan doesn't exist

2468
01:51:38,910 --> 01:51:35,739
historically so you know you talked

2469
01:51:41,700 --> 01:51:38,920
about the a Gregoria or the tapa thing

2470
01:51:42,959 --> 01:51:41,710
in the you know apparently in some way

2471
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:42,969
we don't totally understand we are

2472
01:51:48,540 --> 01:51:45,610
co-creating this reality so if we want

2473
01:51:50,250 --> 01:51:48,550
to create Satan Satan appears it

2474
01:51:52,740 --> 01:51:50,260
davidich field that near-death

2475
01:51:56,160 --> 01:51:52,750
experiencer who was dragged under a

2476
01:51:57,629 --> 01:51:56,170
commuter train and died he saw Jesus

2477
01:52:00,689 --> 01:51:57,639
that was his experience and it

2478
01:52:03,649 --> 01:52:00,699
transformed his life I don't question

2479
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:03,659
that the the fact that he encountered

2480
01:52:08,250 --> 01:52:06,730
Christ consciousness spiritual people

2481
01:52:10,350 --> 01:52:08,260
will tell me well that's what he

2482
01:52:13,229 --> 01:52:10,360
encountered what he needed to encounter

2483
01:52:15,450 --> 01:52:13,239
and it can embody any form that he

2484
01:52:18,330 --> 01:52:15,460
understands it to be just like we do in

2485
01:52:20,669 --> 01:52:18,340
lucid dreaming yeah but if Christianity

2486
01:52:23,490 --> 01:52:20,679
was a social engineering program only

2487
01:52:25,950 --> 01:52:23,500
and it wasn't based in a real spiritual

2488
01:52:28,919 --> 01:52:25,960
being called Christ in Christ crisis

2489
01:52:30,990 --> 01:52:28,929
would be wholly a product of the social

2490
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:31,000
engineering program and just a

2491
01:52:38,490 --> 01:52:36,730
manufactured no well I mean I was again

2492
01:52:41,339 --> 01:52:38,500
I can agree with half of that and not

2493
01:52:45,839 --> 01:52:41,349
with the other half you know because I

2494
01:52:48,299 --> 01:52:45,849
think that is again I think that Tibetan

2495
01:52:50,939 --> 01:52:48,309
Buddhists for one have a deeper

2496
01:52:54,000 --> 01:52:50,949
understanding of how we are co-creating

2497
01:52:57,980 --> 01:52:54,010
this reality and how both can exist at

2498
01:53:01,440 --> 01:52:57,990
the same time and that you know

2499
01:53:04,380 --> 01:53:01,450
Jesus of the you know it's like so in my

2500
01:53:06,900 --> 01:53:04,390
interview with David [\h__\h] field super

2501
01:53:09,270 --> 01:53:06,910
nice guy and like one of the things

2502
01:53:10,740 --> 01:53:09,280
that's phenomenal about his near-death

2503
01:53:13,530 --> 01:53:10,750
experience with so many of these

2504
01:53:15,180 --> 01:53:13,540
near-death experiencers is the obvious

2505
01:53:18,110 --> 01:53:15,190
spiritual transformation that they got

2506
01:53:21,060 --> 01:53:18,120
that he goes through his life is changed

2507
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:21,070
dramatically and significantly and his

2508
01:53:25,350 --> 01:53:23,530
life speaks to that he also develops

2509
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:25,360
these unbelievable abilities he's able

2510
01:53:30,660 --> 01:53:28,690
to produce it's incredible art he has no

2511
01:53:33,120 --> 01:53:30,670
art training at all but he came out of

2512
01:53:35,070 --> 01:53:33,130
the near-death experience and he's doing

2513
01:53:37,470 --> 01:53:35,080
these incredible large-scale art and

2514
01:53:39,870 --> 01:53:37,480
composing music it he has this art and

2515
01:53:43,860 --> 01:53:39,880
it's Jesus and I asked him about it

2516
01:53:45,780 --> 01:53:43,870
because yes I encountered Jesus and it

2517
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:45,790
was amazing and I saw Jesus and I looked

2518
01:53:50,340 --> 01:53:48,130
over to the side and I saw the world

2519
01:53:53,580 --> 01:53:50,350
being created and stars and this and

2520
01:53:55,110 --> 01:53:53,590
that and I said okay but you understand

2521
01:53:58,350 --> 01:53:55,120
that the people that have studied

2522
01:54:00,360 --> 01:53:58,360
near-death experience scientifically if

2523
01:54:02,790 --> 01:54:00,370
you will you know across culture across

2524
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:02,800
time large numbers of people different

2525
01:54:10,550 --> 01:54:06,130
medical conditions consistently they say

2526
01:54:13,860 --> 01:54:10,560
that Jesus is just one aspect one

2527
01:54:16,980 --> 01:54:13,870
possible connection that you can have

2528
01:54:18,990 --> 01:54:16,990
and they're consistent about this the

2529
01:54:21,420 --> 01:54:19,000
all these other aspects but Jesus seems

2530
01:54:24,300 --> 01:54:21,430
to be just one story that can be spun

2531
01:54:27,210 --> 01:54:24,310
and he was like no Alex I encountered

2532
01:54:29,310 --> 01:54:27,220
Jesus so I said David let me approach it

2533
01:54:32,490 --> 01:54:29,320
a different way I've had people that

2534
01:54:36,170 --> 01:54:32,500
have had multiple near-death experiences

2535
01:54:39,570 --> 01:54:36,180
on the show and what they tell me is

2536
01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:39,580
sometimes what they experience in their

2537
01:54:46,410 --> 01:54:42,970
first near-death experience gives way to

2538
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:46,420
a deeper truth that they experience and

2539
01:54:52,110 --> 01:54:49,090
subsequent near-death experiences and it

2540
01:54:54,740 --> 01:54:52,120
goes deeper and higher if you will and

2541
01:54:58,860 --> 01:54:54,750
some of these people have a sense that

2542
01:55:01,320 --> 01:54:58,870
Jesus was a necessary entry point for

2543
01:55:04,530 --> 01:55:01,330
them to understand the light in the love

2544
01:55:07,290 --> 01:55:04,540
but that that kind of fell away as they

2545
01:55:08,910 --> 01:55:07,300
got deeper into it I don't know if

2546
01:55:11,420 --> 01:55:08,920
that's the answer I don't know if that's

2547
01:55:14,570 --> 01:55:11,430
reality but I can see how that

2548
01:55:18,860 --> 01:55:14,580
to play into this because to think that

2549
01:55:22,070 --> 01:55:18,870
david not only saw Jesus like the Jesus

2550
01:55:24,650 --> 01:55:22,080
of the you know movies but that when he

2551
01:55:30,230 --> 01:55:24,660
rolled over the bed he actually saw the

2552
01:55:32,420 --> 01:55:30,240
universe being created slow hanging

2553
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:32,430
fruit of course people are deluded and I

2554
01:55:37,490 --> 01:55:35,730
would say you know 999 out of a thousand

2555
01:55:39,980 --> 01:55:37,500
of these any of these experiences that

2556
01:55:42,050 --> 01:55:39,990
says in by alien abduction I'd say their

2557
01:55:45,350 --> 01:55:42,060
near-death experiences there may well be

2558
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:45,360
delusional there are so many levels of

2559
01:55:53,030 --> 01:55:48,930
psychic manipulation going on but it

2560
01:55:57,350 --> 01:55:53,040
does I mean that doesn't mean to finish

2561
01:56:00,440 --> 01:55:57,360
that point I mean one can't what's wrong

2562
01:56:02,630 --> 01:56:00,450
I'm gonna refer to here it's like the

2563
01:56:04,130 --> 01:56:02,640
Enlightenment problem that because

2564
01:56:05,780 --> 01:56:04,140
there's thousands of people out there

2565
01:56:07,850 --> 01:56:05,790
claiming to be enlightened that we can

2566
01:56:09,590 --> 01:56:07,860
pretty much see at least establish for

2567
01:56:13,010 --> 01:56:09,600
our own satisfaction they're deluded

2568
01:56:14,750 --> 01:56:13,020
that that shouldn't lead us to then said

2569
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:14,760
anyone who says they're enlightened is

2570
01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:16,890
deluded or lying because then we're

2571
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:18,570
saying that enlightenment doesn't exist

2572
01:56:22,370 --> 01:56:20,370
or that somebody who got enlightened

2573
01:56:23,450 --> 01:56:22,380
would never speak about it and that

2574
01:56:26,630 --> 01:56:23,460
would be a mistake

2575
01:56:28,460 --> 01:56:26,640
I think indisputably and arguably so we

2576
01:56:31,610 --> 01:56:28,470
just have to kind of leave it open well

2577
01:56:33,740 --> 01:56:31,620
I don't know enlightenment I intuitively

2578
01:56:36,740 --> 01:56:33,750
I know that enlightenment exists for

2579
01:56:39,800 --> 01:56:36,750
myself I have that felt sense in my life

2580
01:56:41,750 --> 01:56:39,810
so I've got you know I've got no Dogma

2581
01:56:43,940 --> 01:56:41,760
around that but I've also got no doubt

2582
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:43,950
that what I mean by enlightenment has

2583
01:56:48,830 --> 01:56:46,890
some kind of real reality but as far as

2584
01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:48,840
people out there claiming to it well

2585
01:56:53,570 --> 01:56:51,330
it's unknown I just assumed most of them

2586
01:56:56,360 --> 01:56:53,580
are deluded and most of them I look at

2587
01:56:58,310 --> 01:56:56,370
seem to confirm that assumption but I

2588
01:57:01,220 --> 01:56:58,320
can only really speak to the ones I

2589
01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:01,230
encounter directly and that's only to

2590
01:57:05,810 --> 01:57:03,210
released I've met one who I think was

2591
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:05,820
deeply delune and another I think is is

2592
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:07,890
being honest about it they are in this

2593
01:57:13,190 --> 01:57:10,170
different state and good for them it's

2594
01:57:15,260 --> 01:57:13,200
wonderful to be close to that so I say

2595
01:57:19,070 --> 01:57:15,270
the same with I mean it goes even much

2596
01:57:21,020 --> 01:57:19,080
more for Christ in Christianity we we

2597
01:57:22,700 --> 01:57:21,030
can only really refer a to our

2598
01:57:24,650 --> 01:57:22,710
experience with other Christians and

2599
01:57:25,130 --> 01:57:24,660
these people you're talking now on the

2600
01:57:28,180 --> 01:57:25,140
case by

2601
01:57:32,060 --> 01:57:28,190
case basis and be our own experience

2602
01:57:36,700 --> 01:57:32,070
with Christ and know Christianity and my

2603
01:57:39,500 --> 01:57:36,710
sense about Christ in Christianity is I

2604
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:39,510
mean I said it's about evil like evil

2605
01:57:44,810 --> 01:57:42,810
isn't possibly unnecessary word just

2606
01:57:48,620 --> 01:57:44,820
because there isn't there is a reality

2607
01:57:52,310 --> 01:57:48,630
that if we're going to identify and talk

2608
01:57:54,500 --> 01:57:52,320
about it well it's pretty evil but I'd

2609
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:54,510
say that much more so about Christ and

2610
01:57:58,330 --> 01:57:55,890
Christianity although it's in a more

2611
01:58:01,900 --> 01:57:58,340
abstract way that they do represent

2612
01:58:04,070 --> 01:58:01,910
something real something profoundly real

2613
01:58:09,110 --> 01:58:04,080
when you say real no are you talking

2614
01:58:11,210 --> 01:58:09,120
about historically well there isn't

2615
01:58:14,810 --> 01:58:11,220
really a history of Christ it's just a

2616
01:58:17,650 --> 01:58:14,820
Bible so I can't really say it's

2617
01:58:20,620 --> 01:58:17,660
historically can i but narrative Lee I

2618
01:58:22,820 --> 01:58:20,630
mean they're ative Lee then is

2619
01:58:27,260 --> 01:58:22,830
historically I don't think it was all

2620
01:58:29,630 --> 01:58:27,270
made this is this is I didn't realize

2621
01:58:32,630 --> 01:58:29,640
you were so Christian okay I don't think

2622
01:58:34,850 --> 01:58:32,640
anything is all made up I just don't

2623
01:58:37,310 --> 01:58:34,860
think it really gets us to an

2624
01:58:39,650 --> 01:58:37,320
interesting counterpoint or nay cuz it

2625
01:58:42,470 --> 01:58:39,660
much safer grounds castañeda because my

2626
01:58:44,780 --> 01:58:42,480
feeling caseinate is he's been he's been

2627
01:58:47,360 --> 01:58:44,790
too thoroughly or not thoroughly enough

2628
01:58:51,170 --> 01:58:47,370
to bump but too easily dismissed the

2629
01:58:53,540 --> 01:58:51,180
Castaneda's books either side and to a

2630
01:58:56,360 --> 01:58:53,550
degree and the cast Nader was lying and

2631
01:58:59,270 --> 01:58:56,370
that he probably was heavily compromised

2632
01:59:01,280 --> 01:58:59,280
and quite pathological but there was

2633
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:01,290
incredibly profound truth in those books

2634
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:03,090
and I don't just mean that it's

2635
01:59:08,150 --> 01:59:04,890
metaphorical troops I think there's

2636
01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:08,160
actual literal truth in those books so I

2637
01:59:12,410 --> 01:59:10,410
would say the same about the gospel

2638
01:59:14,300 --> 01:59:12,420
there's literal truth in there and

2639
01:59:17,210 --> 01:59:14,310
there's a literal truth that there was a

2640
01:59:19,580 --> 01:59:17,220
guy who walked this planet who was in a

2641
01:59:22,220 --> 01:59:19,590
state of grace let's say that was very

2642
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:22,230
very unusual you know I'm not saying it

2643
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:24,810
was unprecedented at he's the son of God

2644
01:59:28,820 --> 01:59:27,210
that stuff's trickier that becomes quite

2645
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:28,830
abstract and I'd see it more like a

2646
01:59:35,360 --> 01:59:32,730
mathematical formula that represents

2647
01:59:38,359 --> 01:59:35,370
some base reality in the universe is my

2648
01:59:41,330 --> 01:59:38,369
sense like the Trinity and so on

2649
01:59:44,450 --> 01:59:41,340
but you know this is very we could go on

2650
01:59:47,689 --> 01:59:44,460
for hours with this but the sort of

2651
01:59:49,729 --> 01:59:47,699
specific final words make is the idea

2652
01:59:52,010 --> 01:59:49,739
and I said it's about Castaneda the idea

2653
01:59:57,140 --> 01:59:52,020
if Gaston had a maiden last I thought he

2654
01:59:59,180 --> 01:59:57,150
was way gray a genius and anyone I can

2655
02:00:01,010 --> 01:59:59,190
even think of in history like for

2656
02:00:04,100 --> 02:00:01,020
somebody to just make that up would just

2657
02:00:06,470 --> 02:00:04,110
require such skill talent imagination I

2658
02:00:09,109 --> 02:00:06,480
just don't believe it so the idea that

2659
02:00:11,300 --> 02:00:09,119
social engineers you know or secret

2660
02:00:14,060 --> 02:00:11,310
societies could completely create

2661
02:00:16,810 --> 02:00:14,070
Christianity as a cynical tool of

2662
02:00:19,399 --> 02:00:16,820
manipulation makes them on a level of

2663
02:00:22,580 --> 02:00:19,409
angelic in a way this relates back to

2664
02:00:24,560 --> 02:00:22,590
the quote-unquote focus of this

2665
02:00:26,990 --> 02:00:24,570
interview although it hasn't been and

2666
02:00:29,990 --> 02:00:27,000
and that's what you suspect or what I

2667
02:00:33,320 --> 02:00:30,000
suspect is you know potentially aasaiya

2668
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:33,330
and I think it is Simon and the

2669
02:00:37,820 --> 02:00:35,610
Necronomicon I mean how shoddy and inept

2670
02:00:41,660 --> 02:00:37,830
that is comparatively it was effective

2671
02:00:43,810 --> 02:00:41,670
but it's paper thin it's so easy to take

2672
02:00:46,910 --> 02:00:43,820
apart like the Tom to launch thing

2673
02:00:48,620 --> 02:00:46,920
Christianity 2,000 years later still

2674
02:00:50,570 --> 02:00:48,630
people develop the following it can't

2675
02:00:53,089 --> 02:00:50,580
say they're old Duke serenity rod was a

2676
02:00:55,609 --> 02:00:53,099
genius he was one of the great thinkers

2677
02:00:57,709 --> 02:00:55,619
of the 20th century and he converts to

2678
02:00:59,959 --> 02:00:57,719
Catholicism based as all says and based

2679
02:01:02,810 --> 02:00:59,969
on what he understood about the gospel I

2680
02:01:05,180 --> 02:01:02,820
don't really agree that he should have

2681
02:01:08,780 --> 02:01:05,190
converted to Catholicism I think they're

2682
02:01:10,700 --> 02:01:08,790
crazy but personally but whatever he was

2683
02:01:12,379 --> 02:01:10,710
smarter than I was so I've got to give

2684
02:01:14,660 --> 02:01:12,389
some credit where'd you and he's

2685
02:01:17,479 --> 02:01:14,670
reframed Christianity for me that it's

2686
02:01:20,300 --> 02:01:17,489
almost like it's almost beyond face in a

2687
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:20,310
way it's just like it's so profound what

2688
02:01:25,339 --> 02:01:22,650
he reveals there in the gospel so

2689
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:25,349
profound that it's almost in distinction

2690
02:01:30,439 --> 02:01:27,690
from a holy book I would say as a level

2691
02:01:31,100 --> 02:01:30,449
of awareness that went into it so yeah

2692
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:31,110
seiyya

2693
02:01:36,890 --> 02:01:34,050
well maybe but do and and angels do

2694
02:01:38,390 --> 02:01:36,900
science maybe they do and how do we know

2695
02:01:40,189 --> 02:01:38,400
you know if Christ consciousness is real

2696
02:01:43,310 --> 02:01:40,199
what are we saying then that maybe

2697
02:01:45,770 --> 02:01:43,320
Christ manipulated the social engineers

2698
02:01:48,470 --> 02:01:45,780
to create a fake version of it so that

2699
02:01:50,690 --> 02:01:48,480
people would experience you know it gets

2700
02:01:53,030 --> 02:01:50,700
just so convoluted

2701
02:01:55,430 --> 02:01:53,040
bizarre it does get convoluted and

2702
02:01:58,160 --> 02:01:55,440
bizarre but then I think that's at the

2703
02:02:02,320 --> 02:01:58,170
point at which it gets spiritual because

2704
02:02:05,330 --> 02:02:02,330
we let go of the rational we let go of

2705
02:02:06,710 --> 02:02:05,340
the level three kind of thing that you

2706
02:02:10,100 --> 02:02:06,720
know we're going to fight about whether

2707
02:02:11,510 --> 02:02:10,110
it's Crowley or whether it's Q or

2708
02:02:14,510 --> 02:02:11,520
whether it's you know all this kind of

2709
02:02:18,170 --> 02:02:14,520
stuff and we let go into this larger

2710
02:02:23,090 --> 02:02:18,180
reality my point is that I you can't

2711
02:02:26,150 --> 02:02:23,100
bring your historical Jesus along with

2712
02:02:28,550 --> 02:02:26,160
you as part of that reality so all the

2713
02:02:31,010 --> 02:02:28,560
great minds in time that have connected

2714
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:31,020
with Christ consciousness which is all

2715
02:02:35,720 --> 02:02:33,810
you could ever I don't understand why

2716
02:02:37,370 --> 02:02:35,730
people interviewed an evangelical

2717
02:02:39,290 --> 02:02:37,380
preacher that I really like his name is

2718
02:02:42,080 --> 02:02:39,300
russ dizdar and he spent the last thirty

2719
02:02:44,450 --> 02:02:42,090
years working with victims of satanic

2720
02:02:47,870 --> 02:02:44,460
ritual abuse and really helping people

2721
02:02:49,340 --> 02:02:47,880
he's a people helper because imagine if

2722
02:02:51,280 --> 02:02:49,350
you are such a victim and you have

2723
02:02:53,780 --> 02:02:51,290
really have nowhere to turn you know the

2724
02:02:55,550 --> 02:02:53,790
people are saying well there isn't can't

2725
02:02:57,650 --> 02:02:55,560
be that because it there is no such

2726
02:02:59,090 --> 02:02:57,660
thing as Satan and yet they're their

2727
02:03:02,480 --> 02:02:59,100
victims and they they have been

2728
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:02,490
victimized in that but anyways I was

2729
02:03:06,620 --> 02:03:04,770
having this kind of similar conversation

2730
02:03:11,210 --> 02:03:06,630
with Russ but when you talk to any

2731
02:03:14,390 --> 02:03:11,220
Christian it always they always react to

2732
02:03:16,820 --> 02:03:14,400
this idea of Christ consciousness and I

2733
02:03:18,550 --> 02:03:16,830
always want to say well how can you

2734
02:03:21,890 --> 02:03:18,560
react to that how else are you

2735
02:03:23,870 --> 02:03:21,900
experiencing Jesus I'm like giving you

2736
02:03:26,900 --> 02:03:23,880
the highest compliment that you are

2737
02:03:29,270 --> 02:03:26,910
experiencing Christ through some kind of

2738
02:03:32,360 --> 02:03:29,280
extended consciousness experience

2739
02:03:34,580 --> 02:03:32,370
why are you programmed triggered to

2740
02:03:36,410 --> 02:03:34,590
react that no it's not Christ

2741
02:03:39,140 --> 02:03:36,420
consciousness and your God Gnostic

2742
02:03:42,230 --> 02:03:39,150
craziness it's really Jesus it's like

2743
02:03:43,820 --> 02:03:42,240
it's really Jesus but I can understand

2744
02:03:47,030 --> 02:03:43,830
why because there's a whole new age

2745
02:03:48,770 --> 02:03:47,040
thing the whole new a conspiracy

2746
02:03:50,270 --> 02:03:48,780
yeah but they need to be hold on to that

2747
02:03:53,690 --> 02:03:50,280
a little bit more loosely because

2748
02:03:56,960 --> 02:03:53,700
holding on to the biblical narrative in

2749
02:03:59,120 --> 02:03:56,970
that history is really problematic well

2750
02:04:01,580 --> 02:03:59,130
I'll just put it at that well I think

2751
02:04:05,480 --> 02:04:01,590
any kind of holding on is probably math

2752
02:04:07,010 --> 02:04:05,490
so I imagine there's an awful lot of

2753
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:07,020
people out there believing in Christ

2754
02:04:11,920 --> 02:04:08,970
questions that are just stuck in their

2755
02:04:14,570 --> 02:04:11,930
own rap new age ruts around that and

2756
02:04:15,860 --> 02:04:14,580
they've been silent and socially

2757
02:04:18,170 --> 02:04:15,870
engineered to believe in Christ

2758
02:04:20,690 --> 02:04:18,180
consciousness so there we go you know

2759
02:04:22,850 --> 02:04:20,700
you got these this polarization it's not

2760
02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:22,860
Christ consciousness it's Jesus it's not

2761
02:04:28,520 --> 02:04:25,770
Jesus is Christ Christ as well you know

2762
02:04:30,530 --> 02:04:28,530
maybe it's both maybe it's neither but

2763
02:04:34,130 --> 02:04:30,540
but just to be clear on this point how

2764
02:04:36,650 --> 02:04:34,140
could it be Jesus Jesus would be Christ

2765
02:04:38,750 --> 02:04:36,660
consciousness I think when they say it C

2766
02:04:42,050 --> 02:04:38,760
is what they mean is it's the only Son

2767
02:04:44,440 --> 02:04:42,060
of God and the only waste is through him

2768
02:04:47,210 --> 02:04:44,450
and so on as I say there's a mass of

2769
02:04:49,820 --> 02:04:47,220
mathematical is the word but but I find

2770
02:04:54,620 --> 02:04:49,830
there is there are sound principles

2771
02:04:56,710 --> 02:04:54,630
there that can be observed in play so

2772
02:04:59,990 --> 02:04:56,720
this was a special point in history

2773
02:05:02,510 --> 02:05:00,000
2,000 years ago was a special point in

2774
02:05:04,130 --> 02:05:02,520
history what evident we just don't have

2775
02:05:11,840 --> 02:05:04,140
any evidence for that it's an outrageous

2776
02:05:15,800 --> 02:05:11,850
state not special points the one and

2777
02:05:22,120 --> 02:05:15,810
only that absolutely is inconsistent

2778
02:05:26,270 --> 02:05:25,010
yeah as much as I can as much as I can

2779
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:26,280
take and I think there's some wonderful

2780
02:05:30,620 --> 02:05:28,770
things and much time because I don't

2781
02:05:33,200 --> 02:05:30,630
recommend any kind of all quarters but

2782
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:33,210
he's as close as I get to an artist who

2783
02:05:37,580 --> 02:05:35,250
seemed to be turning into some

2784
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:37,590
interesting things and he I mean he had

2785
02:05:44,210 --> 02:05:40,170
some interesting taste on that I just

2786
02:05:47,240 --> 02:05:44,220
think it seems to Alex that you have a

2787
02:05:51,950 --> 02:05:47,250
strong conviction around this which is

2788
02:05:54,260 --> 02:05:51,960
like a bulwark against I don't have a

2789
02:05:56,630 --> 02:05:54,270
strong conviction it's just plain from

2790
02:06:04,010 --> 02:05:56,640
the evident old open to someone who can

2791
02:06:06,170 --> 02:06:04,020
present here's the point is like you say

2792
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:06,180
you're open to talking to Christians and

2793
02:06:10,580 --> 02:06:08,490
dialoguing with Christians I am too as

2794
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:10,590
long as you acknowledge that like you

2795
02:06:13,660 --> 02:06:12,450
acknowledge that pay the Bible is

2796
02:06:16,919 --> 02:06:13,670
pro-roman and

2797
02:06:20,290 --> 02:06:16,929
the essence of what Joe Atwell says is

2798
02:06:25,510 --> 02:06:20,300
proven in the text is that the Bible is

2799
02:06:28,979 --> 02:06:25,520
dependent that's not impossible hurdle

2800
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:31,120
conditionally I could just say to you I

2801
02:06:36,130 --> 02:06:33,290
can't touch you until you've raised your

2802
02:06:37,870 --> 02:06:36,140
arm I'm not putting a condition on it

2803
02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:37,880
but I'm saying I don't think we're

2804
02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:39,650
really I don't know why you're fighting

2805
02:06:44,620 --> 02:06:42,050
on this one because this is the this is

2806
02:06:47,470 --> 02:06:44,630
the point that we had earlier I mean if

2807
02:06:50,260 --> 02:06:47,480
someone isn't willing to read the email

2808
02:06:52,750 --> 02:06:50,270
exchange you had with Peter Levin de and

2809
02:06:55,750 --> 02:06:52,760
yet they want to form an opinion which

2810
02:06:58,990 --> 02:06:55,760
I'm sure a lot of people do the majority

2811
02:07:01,959 --> 02:06:59,000
of people form an opinion on your

2812
02:07:03,790 --> 02:07:01,969
exchange because I've had this I just

2813
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:03,800
had I was just interviewed for my book

2814
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:06,170
just a while ago and I wanted to say who

2815
02:07:10,090 --> 02:07:08,570
it's with but guy really like really

2816
02:07:12,100 --> 02:07:10,100
respect and I brought this up and I said

2817
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:12,110
you know Jason totally destroyed and

2818
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:15,170
outed lavinda and he was like no he

2819
02:07:17,380 --> 02:07:15,650
didn't

2820
02:07:20,320 --> 02:07:17,390
I said well have you read it he goes no

2821
02:07:23,229 --> 02:07:20,330
but I know what levander says and you

2822
02:07:25,810 --> 02:07:23,239
know it's so they don't need the

2823
02:07:29,260 --> 02:07:25,820
evidence or they don't need to deeply

2824
02:07:33,550 --> 02:07:29,270
dive into the evidence so that's the

2825
02:07:35,439 --> 02:07:33,560
same that's the same thing with I'm not

2826
02:07:36,910 --> 02:07:35,449
saying you are you you are saying that

2827
02:07:39,130 --> 02:07:36,920
Christians who come to your site a

2828
02:07:40,959 --> 02:07:39,140
Christian that comes to my site and is

2829
02:07:42,850 --> 02:07:40,969
willing to listen to the interviews with

2830
02:07:45,340 --> 02:07:42,860
Joe at will and have a reasoned response

2831
02:07:48,189 --> 02:07:45,350
to say I don't think the Bible is

2832
02:07:50,020 --> 02:07:48,199
pro-roman because of this this this then

2833
02:07:51,850 --> 02:07:50,030
I'm willing to listen to that as a

2834
02:07:54,100 --> 02:07:51,860
matter of fact I've gone out and tried

2835
02:07:56,650 --> 02:07:54,110
to engage with Chris and I have

2836
02:07:59,220 --> 02:07:56,660
interviews on the show engage with

2837
02:08:01,479 --> 02:07:59,230
Christian scholars engaged with

2838
02:08:03,430 --> 02:08:01,489
religious scholars who are atheist

2839
02:08:05,830 --> 02:08:03,440
because they don't like at well either

2840
02:08:07,810 --> 02:08:05,840
and I wrestle those people to the ground

2841
02:08:10,450 --> 02:08:07,820
and they all wind up admitting at the

2842
02:08:12,850 --> 02:08:10,460
end that the Gospels are dependent on

2843
02:08:16,530 --> 02:08:12,860
Josephus in other words the people who

2844
02:08:20,410 --> 02:08:16,540
wrote the Gospels clearly had access to

2845
02:08:23,110 --> 02:08:20,420
Josephus is writing this is this is like

2846
02:08:26,260 --> 02:08:23,120
a point that you can wrestle people to

2847
02:08:26,919 --> 02:08:26,270
the ground on and they'll be while even

2848
02:08:30,910 --> 02:08:26,929
doing

2849
02:08:33,490 --> 02:08:30,920
as the thing this is the opening I said

2850
02:08:37,570 --> 02:08:33,500
how you're tenacious I'm tenacious on

2851
02:08:40,990 --> 02:08:37,580
suit uncertain things too I mean because

2852
02:08:45,580 --> 02:08:41,000
it's the Bible if the Bible is pro-roman

2853
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:45,590
then we can have saying I mean I

2854
02:08:49,450 --> 02:08:47,570
obviously don't have the tools to answer

2855
02:08:52,060 --> 02:08:49,460
these questions all I can tell you is

2856
02:08:53,560 --> 02:08:52,070
what my position is and you'll say yeah

2857
02:08:56,410 --> 02:08:53,570
but this time the other man said one

2858
02:08:58,660 --> 02:08:56,420
maybe but I have to take the time to get

2859
02:09:01,630 --> 02:08:58,670
familiar with you know stuff and then we

2860
02:09:05,229 --> 02:09:01,640
could talk about that otherwise you

2861
02:09:07,479 --> 02:09:05,239
clearly put me at a big disadvantage and

2862
02:09:10,660 --> 02:09:07,489
if I'm not careful and it seeming like

2863
02:09:13,090 --> 02:09:10,670
I'm super Pro Christian or anti zero out

2864
02:09:15,370 --> 02:09:13,100
well I'm not I'm just like I don't know

2865
02:09:17,919 --> 02:09:15,380
I'm not convinced because I haven't

2866
02:09:21,070 --> 02:09:17,929
looked at it but and I wouldn't you know

2867
02:09:23,649 --> 02:09:21,080
I I'm guessing there are some leaks

2868
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:23,659
being made there because I'm not saying

2869
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:26,210
I mean maybe Paul was a was a Roman

2870
02:09:30,939 --> 02:09:28,370
agent I'm perfectly open to that it was

2871
02:09:32,770 --> 02:09:30,949
a good writer so be a bit distressing to

2872
02:09:35,410 --> 02:09:32,780
think that they had agents at that level

2873
02:09:36,820 --> 02:09:35,420
of poetic insight but yeah I'm not

2874
02:09:39,610 --> 02:09:36,830
ruling out that Christianity was

2875
02:09:42,280 --> 02:09:39,620
co-opted from day one by st. Paul or

2876
02:09:44,350 --> 02:09:42,290
Paul right at all why would I

2877
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:44,360
and I'm nor am I saying I know obviously

2878
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:46,730
I don't know that Christ was a real

2879
02:09:50,729 --> 02:09:48,770
person and walked on the earth I'm just

2880
02:09:54,189 --> 02:09:50,739
saying that's that's what I think

2881
02:09:58,120 --> 02:09:54,199
and but my Patera point is as I don't

2882
02:10:00,040 --> 02:09:58,130
see a incongruity between the Christian

2883
02:10:02,020 --> 02:10:00,050
view of Christ is listen Christ is done

2884
02:10:03,820 --> 02:10:02,030
and that's all wonderful and that

2885
02:10:06,040 --> 02:10:03,830
Christianity was a style those two

2886
02:10:08,110 --> 02:10:06,050
things are quite compatible solution

2887
02:10:13,030 --> 02:10:08,120
that's that's the only point I'm making

2888
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:13,040
I think our guests who I've dragged

2889
02:10:17,490 --> 02:10:15,650
through I've just delightful to me

2890
02:10:20,290 --> 02:10:17,500
anyway two and a half hour conversation

2891
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:20,300
has written some fantastic books that

2892
02:10:25,479 --> 02:10:23,090
you have to check out and has this

2893
02:10:28,660 --> 02:10:25,489
website that I keep talking about Auto

2894
02:10:32,890 --> 02:10:28,670
culture as well as his podcast the

2895
02:10:36,010 --> 02:10:32,900
luminous all great great stuff really an

2896
02:10:37,270 --> 02:10:36,020
important thinker I think just in

2897
02:10:38,970 --> 02:10:37,280
general I'll just leave it at that an

2898
02:10:42,630 --> 02:10:38,980
important thing over time and

2899
02:10:46,320 --> 02:10:42,640
and an analyst of our culture that is

2900
02:10:49,650 --> 02:10:46,330
just not to be ignored Jason tell folks

2901
02:10:53,100 --> 02:10:49,660
what's going on with these books where

2902
02:10:57,060 --> 02:10:53,110
they can find him in an update on 16

2903
02:11:00,150 --> 02:10:57,070
maps of Hell okay thanks for that it was

2904
02:11:01,860 --> 02:11:00,160
quite entertaining all through but

2905
02:11:05,070 --> 02:11:01,870
particularly and I'm glad we got into

2906
02:11:07,320 --> 02:11:05,080
you know more dynamic thing that's

2907
02:11:10,950 --> 02:11:07,330
always quite a rare opportunity I think

2908
02:11:13,590 --> 02:11:10,960
to really connect as far as my site is

2909
02:11:17,640 --> 02:11:13,600
horticulture dot-com the podcast is the

2910
02:11:21,479 --> 02:11:17,650
limo as a weekly saying the books are

2911
02:11:24,350 --> 02:11:21,489
written seen and not seen prisoner

2912
02:11:26,700 --> 02:11:24,360
infinity advise of Kings also dark Oasis

2913
02:11:28,430 --> 02:11:26,710
and that's there was first through his

2914
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:28,440
kind of a trilogy of socio-cultural

2915
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:31,570
engineering and 60 maps of house an

2916
02:11:35,700 --> 02:11:33,610
attempt to kind of synthesize there's

2917
02:11:38,760 --> 02:11:35,710
the different fields which is organized

2918
02:11:39,240 --> 02:11:38,770
abuse and secret societies was Vice

2919
02:11:41,729 --> 02:11:39,250
Kings

2920
02:11:45,150 --> 02:11:41,739
the entertainment industry which has

2921
02:11:47,850 --> 02:11:45,160
seen and not seen and kind of psycho

2922
02:11:49,770 --> 02:11:47,860
social cultural engineering which is

2923
02:11:52,770 --> 02:11:49,780
Krishna infinity and so they're all

2924
02:11:55,470 --> 02:11:52,780
brought together for 16 match of how and

2925
02:11:58,500 --> 02:11:55,480
I couldn't find a publisher for this

2926
02:12:00,600 --> 02:11:58,510
much to my surprise even though it was

2927
02:12:03,180 --> 02:12:00,610
about Hollywood its it was all this

2928
02:12:05,220 --> 02:12:03,190
Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and

2929
02:12:09,750 --> 02:12:05,230
Jeffrey Epstein it seemed like it was

2930
02:12:11,729 --> 02:12:09,760
very topical subject but despite that I

2931
02:12:14,280 --> 02:12:11,739
could not find a publisher and even the

2932
02:12:18,080 --> 02:12:14,290
publisher that I was was previously a on

2933
02:12:21,150 --> 02:12:18,090
books weren't interested so I ended up

2934
02:12:24,510 --> 02:12:21,160
crowdfunding to get it published and

2935
02:12:28,110 --> 02:12:24,520
I've raised over the last two months now

2936
02:12:30,060 --> 02:12:28,120
or six weeks I think it is almost eight

2937
02:12:33,479 --> 02:12:30,070
thousand pounds which is going to cover

2938
02:12:36,840 --> 02:12:33,489
a run of 200 books I think paperbacks

2939
02:12:39,660 --> 02:12:36,850
it's a very large book and an audio but

2940
02:12:41,729 --> 02:12:39,670
we shall be doing and I'm just currently

2941
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:41,739
trying to raise another thousand to fund

2942
02:12:45,780 --> 02:12:43,690
a hardback edition because some people

2943
02:12:48,870 --> 02:12:45,790
like Auerbach edition and that that

2944
02:12:50,790 --> 02:12:48,880
campaign goes through to all this yet so

2945
02:12:52,410 --> 02:12:50,800
people are interested they can pre-order

2946
02:12:54,979 --> 02:12:52,420
the book and buy

2947
02:12:58,890 --> 02:12:54,989
doing so no help from the hog back I

2948
02:13:02,160 --> 02:12:58,900
think that's so encouraging to hear that

2949
02:13:04,770 --> 02:13:02,170
people are willing to get involved in

2950
02:13:08,160 --> 02:13:04,780
that way it's almost like even better

2951
02:13:09,840 --> 02:13:08,170
than having a publisher that's my

2952
02:13:11,550 --> 02:13:09,850
experience I'm connecting directly to

2953
02:13:13,919 --> 02:13:11,560
the readers I know their names their

2954
02:13:16,470 --> 02:13:13,929
addresses I'll be describing the votes

2955
02:13:19,050 --> 02:13:16,480
personally and posting them by having a

2956
02:13:21,780 --> 02:13:19,060
direct connection to my readers it's far

2957
02:13:24,030 --> 02:13:21,790
more satisfying actually than this you

2958
02:13:27,360 --> 02:13:24,040
know evasive review in the New York

2959
02:13:29,010 --> 02:13:27,370
Times which which I spent so long you

2960
02:13:32,310 --> 02:13:29,020
know chasing after some dream that

2961
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:32,320
actually was was not I think what I was

2962
02:13:37,590 --> 02:13:34,690
looking for is what I was looking for

2963
02:13:40,110 --> 02:13:37,600
was a sense of community connecting to

2964
02:13:43,260 --> 02:13:40,120
other souls out there and sharing my

2965
02:13:45,030 --> 02:13:43,270
experience yeah this does seem to be the

2966
02:13:48,689 --> 02:13:45,040
natural organic way and I'm not using

2967
02:13:53,250 --> 02:13:48,699
Amazon and Amazon is not included in my

2968
02:13:56,160 --> 02:13:53,260
project well I'm just very happy that

2969
02:13:59,660 --> 02:13:56,170
you're part of my community and that

2970
02:14:01,830 --> 02:13:59,670
you're in my head I just really really

2971
02:14:04,740 --> 02:14:01,840
respected and myorr what you do and I'm

2972
02:14:07,380 --> 02:14:04,750
so glad you're doing it well thanks Alex

2973
02:14:09,360 --> 02:14:07,390
and did say I was impressed by your

2974
02:14:12,510 --> 02:14:09,370
willingness to take on the levander

2975
02:14:15,689 --> 02:14:12,520
Leviathan to because not very few others

2976
02:14:17,630 --> 02:14:15,699
have followed you know what I don't pick

2977
02:14:21,240 --> 02:14:17,640
tout what I've done and been willing to

2978
02:14:21,479 --> 02:14:21,250
yeah take it further so yeah kudos for

2979
02:14:23,760 --> 02:14:21,489
that

2980
02:14:26,459 --> 02:14:23,770
and thanks very much for the opportunity

2981
02:14:28,919 --> 02:14:26,469
today thanks again to Jason Horsley for

2982
02:14:30,750 --> 02:14:28,929
joining me today on skeptic oh you know

2983
02:14:34,470 --> 02:14:30,760
the one question I guess idea from this

2984
02:14:38,340 --> 02:14:34,480
interview has to do with this blog post

2985
02:14:40,560 --> 02:14:38,350
about his exchange about Crowley with

2986
02:14:42,419 --> 02:14:40,570
Peter Levin died so the question kind of

2987
02:14:46,050 --> 02:14:42,429
requires that you are somewhat familiar

2988
02:14:49,860 --> 02:14:46,060
with that post and it is what do you

2989
02:14:52,800 --> 02:14:49,870
think of the Crowley apologists I mean

2990
02:14:56,820 --> 02:14:52,810
is Aleister Crowley this kind of a kind

2991
02:15:00,450 --> 02:14:56,830
of classic misunderstood rebel against

2992
02:15:05,100 --> 02:15:00,460
oppressive cultural norms or is he just

2993
02:15:09,570 --> 02:15:07,290
love to hear your thoughts on that of

2994
02:15:11,729 --> 02:15:09,580
course the easiest best place to do it

2995
02:15:14,310 --> 02:15:11,739
if you want to get a reply for me is

2996
02:15:17,280 --> 02:15:14,320
that the skeptical forum so do check

2997
02:15:19,830 --> 02:15:17,290
that out and also consider jumping over

2998
02:15:21,420 --> 02:15:19,840
to this gap to code comm website where

2999
02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:21,430
you can download this show and all the

3000
02:15:26,310 --> 02:15:23,050
previous shows get them in a nice easy

3001
02:15:29,280 --> 02:15:26,320
mp3 format that you can do with as you

3002
02:15:32,310 --> 02:15:29,290
see fit no ads no firewall no nothing

3003
02:15:35,100 --> 02:15:32,320
like that just take the info and go with

3004
02:15:37,290 --> 02:15:35,110
it I do have a number of I don't know I

3005
02:15:40,140 --> 02:15:37,300
think they're really good shows coming

3006
02:15:43,770 --> 02:15:40,150
up so please stay with me for all of